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Sonya Chowdhury in shock public defence of ME as a biomedical condition ;)

Action for M.E. Chief Executive Sonya Chowdhury has challenged a comment posted on the British Medical Journal (BMJ) website which suggested that for M.E. patients, the condition is “all in their heads”.

Dr Jordan, a medical doctor from Edmonton, Canada, posted his comment in response to an article titled Freedom of information: can researchers still promise control of participants’ data? The article by Nigel Hawkes pertained to the recent judgment that Queen Mary University must release data from the PACE trial.

Story on AfME website - https://www.actionforme.org.uk/news...nds-to-comments-that-m.e.-is-‘psychosomatic’/

Link to comment on BMJ website - http://www.bmj.com/content/354/bmj.i5053/rapid-responses
 

Cheesus

Senior Member
Messages
1,292
Location
UK
I noticed this comment in the BMJ rapid response section:

Freedom of information: can researchers still promise control of participants’ data?
The action taken against the researchers appears to be a continued attempt to justify the condition as a disease entity, thereby creating an environment in which some form of personal gain may be achieved. Whether that gain is in the form of a financial incentive or to manipulate the research findings as a way of placing some distance between a possible underlying mental health or psychosomatic illness and a true physical illness is unknown. It obviously helps satisfy alleged sufferers to hear that it is not all in their head and that what symptoms are experienced must be seen as real and part of a real disease process. Arguments against the sceptics and critics must be answered with facts, according to one's own definition of the facts.

Fibromyalgia would be a more apt description of the symptoms as no amount of manipulation is able to confirm myalgic encephalomyelitis as a condition that presents with any form of brain or spinal cord inflammation.

In Alberta Canada, the condition may be used to claim illness benefits, so there is a very real advantage to having it classified as a disease.

Please note that the aforesaid is my opinion and mine alone. I cannot claim any conflict of interest but my experience in its management provides me with an insight not always available to others.

Yes, because the only possible motive in having it clearly defined as a biomedical condition is so that these people who claim to have ME can get access to benefits. This degree of ignorance is staggering. It isn't difficult to read the odd journal every now and again to see if your beliefs are actually corroborated by evidence.
 
I noticed this comment in the BMJ rapid response section:



Yes, because the only possible motive in having it clearly defined as a biomedical condition is so that these people who claim to have ME can get access to benefits. This degree of ignorance is staggering. It isn't difficult to read the odd journal every now and again to see if your beliefs are actually corroborated by evidence.
That was the one she was replying to.
 

Old Bones

Senior Member
Messages
808
Yet another reason to refer to Canada as the "Dark North" with respect to attitudes towards ME. I am ashamed.

"Dr Jordan, a medical doctor from Edmonton, Canada, posted his comment . . .

The action taken against the researchers appears to be a continued attempt to justify the condition as a disease entity, thereby creating an environment in which some form of personal gain may be achieved. Whether that gain is in the form of a financial incentive or to manipulate the research findings as a way of placing some distance between a possible underlying mental health or psychosomatic illness and a true physical illness is unknown. It obviously helps satisfy alleged sufferers to hear that it is not all in their head and that what symptoms are experienced must be seen as real and part of a real disease process.”

May I suggest we click to support Sonya's rebuttal here: http://www.bmj.com/content/354/bmj.i5053/rapid-responses
So far, she's slightly ahead of Dr. Jordan in "Likes".
 
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JohnCB

Immoderate
Messages
351
Location
England
Hmm, I linked from here to AFME and from there I linked in to BMJ. I read the responses and clicked on like on several of these responses at BMJ. Specifically I clicked like on Sonya Chowdhury's response and I saw the counter change from 16 to 17. Then I refreshed the BMJ page and that same counter had now gone down to 14. Seems odd.
 

worldbackwards

Senior Member
Messages
2,051
Yet another reason to refer to Canada as the "Dark North" with respect to attitudes towards ME. I am ashamed.

"Dr Jordan, a medical doctor from Edmonton, Canada, posted his comment . . .
The Shorter Cuckoos

iu
 

TiredSam

The wise nematode hibernates
Messages
2,677
Location
Germany
That's wonderful, taking one pot-shot at an easy target on a relatively obscure corner of the internet, then making sure we all know about it by praising herself on the AfME website. Many PR members and advocates like Jonathan Edwards and Tom Kindlon and many others write excellent comments all the time without making a big song and dance about it, why's she getting the flags out?

“For M.E. patients, who often struggle to find acceptance and support from friends, family, colleagues and social and welfare services, this can cause a great deal of harm and prevent them from accessing the medical, financial and emotional support they desperately need ..."

Is she implying that there is such a thing as "the medical support ... they desperately need" which we could access under the right circumstances? What support would that be, GET and CBT?

I find her comment equivocal, and suspect it's a cynical attempt to earn a few brownie points given the current MEGA situation. How about a full page article in the Guardian including an unequivocal repudiation of PACE and an apology to ME sufferers?
 

Jan

Senior Member
Messages
458
Location
Devon UK
She could have at least attached some research links. I can't like her comment, I tried, but it all seems too self serving and it was nowhere forceful enough. I have liked the good comments.
 

Glycon

World's Most Dangerous Hand Puppet
Messages
299
Location
ON, Canada
Dr. Jordan sounds like the grumpier version of the CIHR reviewer.

Also, "alleged sufferers"?!?! o_O

I mean, even supposing that ME/CFS is a psychological disorder, what kind of doctor would say something like that?

It would be interesting to hear from Dr. Jordan's patients concerning what he could mean by "an insight not always available to others", which is allegedly provided by his experience with managing ME/CFS? (Or is Dr. Jordan an "alleged sufferer" himself, perhaps? The letter isn't particularly clearly written...)
 

TiredSam

The wise nematode hibernates
Messages
2,677
Location
Germany
She could have at least attached some research links. I can't like her comment, I tried, but it all seems too self serving and it was nowhere forceful enough. I have liked the good comments.

The BPS crowd have no problem saying "of course it's not all in your head, of course it's a real illness", whilst simultaneously crossing their fingers behind their backs and muttering under their breath out of the corner of their mouths "perpetuated by fear of exercise and false beliefs, for which we have just the treatments".

SC just omitted the second part, in the hope that it would please sufferers without going against anything her BPS buddies believe.

Then a sentence about stigmatisation, blah blah ...
 

Glycon

World's Most Dangerous Hand Puppet
Messages
299
Location
ON, Canada
I'm reminded of White's "sufferers claim that symptoms worsen after exertion..." type thing.

It is actually worse than White & co. In fact, I am shocked that a real doctor who works with cases of ME/CFS would say something like that in print.

Merits further investigation, in my opinion...
 

Old Bones

Senior Member
Messages
808
It would be interesting to hear from Dr. Jordan's patients . . .

Although I can't say with absolute certainty that I've found the "Rate MDs" profile for the doctor who posted the opinion in question, there is only one Dr. Tim Jordan registered with the Alberta College of Physicians and Surgeons. Here's a link to what a few of his patients had to say about him:

https://www.ratemds.com/doctor-ratings/3573319/Dr-Tim-Jordan-Grande+Prairie-AB.html

Scroll down to mid-page -- two One Star ratings out of Five!
 

Glycon

World's Most Dangerous Hand Puppet
Messages
299
Location
ON, Canada

Boy, now I REALLY want to hear from Dr. Jordan's ME/CFS patients!
I will be putting in a formal complaint against this doctor. I came in with severe abdominal pain and before checking for symptoms, he began making comments about me being overweight. I am (250 lbs, 6'2) but I've lost 20 lbs in a year and am slowly taking weight off healthily. He mocked what I told him my workout schedule is like and after doing all the tests, refused to discuss any treatments and instead decided to go back to weight loss. He said to get rid of the pain I needed to "stop going to McDonalds and Tim Hortons every day (I go to neither) and become a vegitarian as of tomorrow. I wish I was joking.

Yep, sounds just like the kind of person who would have written that letter!
 
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Glycon

World's Most Dangerous Hand Puppet
Messages
299
Location
ON, Canada
Dr. Timothy Jordan, ladies and gentlemen!

October 2007:
Of all the slings and arrows shot Edmonton’s way over the years, Dr. Tim Jordan’s might be the most cutting.

Jordan’s recent letter to the editor was so belittling, so dismissive of Edmonton, that I was furious, then curious.

If you missed it, let me quote from the letter, sent to The Journal after Jordan’s recent three-month visit here to further his medical studies.

“The upheaval of relocating from Grande Prairie was unimaginable,” he wrote. “It was made no less difficult by the realization of how unfriendly Edmontonians have become. Beggars, vagrants and lay-abouts are such an endearing feature of the city’s milieu.

“There are not many cities that offer sights and entertainments such as spitting on the pavement. This seems to have become de rigueur, along with nosepicking and littering.”


Jordan also called Edmonton a city of mediocrity and describes his return to Grande Prairie as “marvellous.”

OK. I realize Jordan sounds like a pompous ass. Consider the source and forget it, right?

But there we were Thursday, having a nice chat on the phone. Jordan might sound like a prig, but I found him to be quite charming.

Jordan moved to Canada four years ago. He grew up in what was then Rhodesia and spent much of his life in Britain.

During his time here, Jordan stayed in a Saskatchewan Drive condo. He’s active, so he did a lot of walking, running and cycling.

What he saw didn’t impress: Littered streets, rampant homelessness and aggressive panhandlers, not to mention people regularly spitting on sidewalks.

But surely, I asked, people in Britain spit?

“Maybe, but I didn’t see it,” said Jordan. “It just seems to be the thing to do here.”


Let me assure you that Jordan is a man with a sense of humour, as well as a sense of compassion.

The homeless, as well as the litter and spitting, are only symptoms of a mixed up and apathetic society, he believes.

Canadians, he thinks, are spoiled by a sense of moral superiority, as well as a sense of entitlement. We believe government is responsible for societal problems, as well as our care and feeding.

He sees the same attitude in the healthcare system. The public demands higher budgets for hospital care, while individuals continue to ignore their own unhealthy lifestyles.

May 2010:
Re: “Why was attacker, 14, out at 3:30 a.m.?” by Tim Jordan, Letters, April 28.

It appears Tim Jordan is confused about where he lives. In the third paragraph of his letter he states: “ … that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights — including life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness?” This quote would be true if Jordan was living in the U.S.

Since before Confederation, political rights in Canada have been based on the concepts: law and order, peace, and good government.

Grande Prairie is not now, nor was ever, part of the U.S.

J.E. Logan , Edmonton

My initial hunch was right! Dr. Jordan is EXACTLY the kind of person who would accuse the chronically sick of trying to weasel their way into disability benefits for their "alleged suffering"!