multi-day sleep cycle?

[Aerowallah]

When I got bad insomnia due to high glutamate and whipsawing histamines (from a high taurine supp or metal detox or both) it followed a 4-7 day "ON" and 4-7 day "OFF" cycle. This cycle burned itself into my brain, because I was made half crazy from loss of sleep culminating in a couple all-nighters before the insomnia broke and the pattern flipped. Then a night of great sanity-restoring sleep, some more good nights, and then the insomnia slowly ratcheted up again.

After 18 months of suffering, coffee enemas virtually eliminated insomnia within a week after EVERY other sleep cure failed.

My question is, I am left with a list of other low-level AF symptoms (weakness, tinnitus, flu aches and pains, brain fog) that follow this same insomnia pattern--4-7 days "ON" and 4-7 days "OFF". These other symptoms worsen while "ON" and then go into near remission during "OFF", though weakness and PEM is always in the background.

What is this cycle that affects all symptoms including insomnia? Is there a multi-day detox cycle? I read and read about cortisol curves and diurnal patterns but NOTHING about a longer-term repeating cycle that I have had since onset 3 years ago.

Anyone else have this? If we knew what it was we could work with it...

 

[alex3619]

Hmmmm .... thinking about it.

 

[Aerowallah]

Thanks! I can't believe my condition is unique. It helps to keep a log. And one's pattern may present as less black and white than whether you sleep or don't, maybe as a period of worsening of symptoms generally, followed by a period of some degree of improvement--or lessening of severity.

I even infer that a multi-day cycle is working quietly in the background when people see improvement after introducing some new supplement or protocol, only not because it worked but because it coincided with an upswing in such a cycle. I was faked out by sleep aids CONSTANTLY...but they never worked consistently. Even magnesium failed to bring on sleep during a trough in the cycle.

All my mutated SNPs are in detox, and so the CEs work quite dramatically for me in lessening symptoms (and reducing the amplitude of these swings). Because the general opinion among CE users is they reduce the symptoms of detox, and because I know I am high in mercury and lead, I wonder if there is some intelligent design at work here.

As I rest and de-stress and eat better the body, I wonder, several months into natural healing and rebalancing eventually upshifts into detox and pulls metals, causing a stress response as they circulate and are cleared or reabsorbed. But for 18 months my body always shut down its dreadful insomnia just before I was pushed over the edge when everything quieted down and rested. And then, like torture, it started up again several days later. If I took C, or Zinc, or D3 or B12, fistfulls of cilantro, chlorella or ate high glutamate foods etc etc for more than a few days the cycle was upset and made much worse. I never "pushed through" to see where these interventions would lead since I was too depleted already.

Since I avoid all of (what are for me) heavy handed protocols and supplement interventions that people trial here, and am SLOWLY improving since the insomnia stopped, (possibly because CEs improved bile flow and removed more metal than was reabsorbed) is this what one body looks like when naturally chelating metals?

 

[Hutan]

Could it be as simple as:
1. You over do it
2. You get PEM - aches etc
3. The discomfort stops you from sleeping and/or the inability to sleep is part of the PEM
4. You rest because you feel awful
5. You gradually start to feel better
6. You get out of bed, you start doing things, you feel quite good
7. You catch up on all the laundry that you didn't do; clear the kitchen of the unwashed dishes; have a shower, go and buy some food, take the dog for a walk ...
8. You over do it

And repeat...

I think this is what happens to me.

 

[Aerowallah]

No, I would have observed that cause and effect immediately. I NEVER overdo it now and can work on my back! (No, I'm not a male prostitute.) Elevated glutamate insomnia is like a light switch going on in your head. No sweats, no panic, no pounding heart, no hunger--just wide awake like a searchlight is on in your head--unless it was my stress reaction to another sleepless night which was good for a shot of adrenaline. I knew a bad night was beginning because I was unable to yawn, and jingles on the TV started grinding round and round in my head and wouldn't let go. Plus omnset of mild OCD. Excitotoxicity. This cycle has a life of its own. I could not make it better, only worse with interventions. EFT and meditation actually were counterproductive, making the searchlight burn brighter. As the sun (and cortisol) came up I would be lucky to grab a few fractured hours (waking up every 20 minutes with zero dream recall).

 

[alex3619]

Are you regularly testing cortisol? You wrote "As the sun (and cortisol) came up" but is this from testing? Our cortisol pattern often does not always match regular sleep patterns at all, with higher cortisol during sleep and lower cortisol when waking.

Extreme non-sleep and excessive sleep alternating is not unknown. I have had up to three days without any sleep. I have also had weeks at a time with one or two hours sleep. Occasionally I seem to lose all circadian sleep apattern, and nap just a bit every so often, or sleep for an hour out of every six, or even more chaotically.

How long have you been sick for? I see worse circadian sleep regulation in longer term patients, particularly after the first decade, but sometimes starting at around year three.

 

[Aerowallah]

I have a normal cortisol curve, perhaps low normal in the am.

When you've had 18 months to "feel" it out, you'll know normal cortisol feels very different from high adrenaline and high glutamate. High morning cortisol is calming to a wired / tired brain and actually allows me a couple hours of fitful sleep.

I'm not sure circadian rhythm is implicated here. Melatonin has no effect during the "ON" phase.

Had rapid onset of AF symptoms in summer of 2013 after a bad flu virus. Low serotonin, dopamine, epi / norepi. No insomnia in prior life. Went on like a light switch 3 months into usual precursors and Kavinace. Re-test showed elevated glutamate (slightly elevated dopamine) and lower histamines. Sleep 95% normalised within 1 week of CEs.

Now I occasionally am a little fitful from 4 to 5 am but almost always get 6 - 8 hrs.

BUT the pre-existing cycle continues, only now with remaining AF symptoms... That tells me that the cause of the cycle is not sleep based, but something upstream...

 

[alex3619]

The connection between melatonin and ME or CFS is sometimes broken. In any case melatonin has two response windows if I recall correctly, and outside of those times has much less effect, if any. Melatonin, based on very out of date research (there could be even more factors now) was one out of about fifteen things regulating circadian patterns as of 15 years ago or so. Many of those factors are also disturbed in ME or CFS. I knew a lot of this research more than a decade ago, but I have now forgotten nearly all of it.

I do not respond to melatonin at all. I do not respond even if I look for a shifted response window by taking it at different times of the day. The symptoms you describe, with the pattern, vaguely resemble my own circadian issues.

Some of your acronyms are not explained.

We do not understand circadian patterns. We used to think it was all related to the suprachiasmatic nucleus, an internal molecular clock, and about fifteen or so regulatory factors, including melatonin. Only last year, I think, a second circadian center was found, in the brainstem. We know almost nothing about it.

Circadian issues are important because they regulate, for example, patterns of immune activation. They even regulate vasodilatory and breathing patterns.

The problem here, I suspect, unless we can find a clue someone recognizes, is that this kind of thing is at or beyond the cutting edge of medicine.

If something is on an on-off cycle then it could be buildup of something, a decline of something, or a failure in regulation requiring days to switch when it should only take hours. Of course it might also be many factors operating together, like a superimposed wave, and the peaks and troughs looking like state changes. If the later, how long is the transition? That might be a clue.

If the problem is rare then there may not be any real research on it at all. This may mean that the strategy to understanding it might be different from a more common issue that is well researched.

 

[Aerowallah]

You mean my abbreviations? AF is adrenal fatigue. CEs are coffee enemas.

If something is on an on-off cycle then it could be buildup of something, a decline of something, or a failure in regulation requiring days to switch when it should only take hours. Of course it might also be many factors operating together, like a superimposed wave, and the peaks and troughs looking like state changes. If the later, how long is the transition? That might be a clue.

Yes, all good points. Peak to trough for me is a matter of hours--the switch flips during the day after the last night of peak insonmnia / max. exhaustion prior to the first great night of sleep, which was usually 12 hours uninterrupted.

I remain surprised no one has noticed a wider cycle to their insomnia--to pick just one symptom, because this wider cycle continues since the insomnia resolved. A sleep log, in light of brain fog, is critical. Nothing improved my sleep for longer than 4-7 days--and we all know the long list of sleep nostrums--and then I realized that my sleep improved on its own cycle even when I took nothing. That's when I decided that I, with all our interventions, am trying to balance the body's balancing mechanisms without the requisite knowledge, and that I was spending too much healing time rebalancing from the last pill I had taken. Henceforth I would take nothing, but organic food, and simply assist detox. This is where someone often chimes in IT CAN"T BE DONE WITH FOOD! But clearly that is not the case. This is the only thing...and time...that has worked steadily and consistently for me.

There are people giving themselves insomnia on methylation protocols promoted on other threads (I was one) who had to titrate folate / B12 down to food dose levels in order to permit sleep. I don't understand that. Given how sick people can make themselves over time on the issue of co-factors and their proper ratios, why not focus on food, its absorption and elimination (detox)?

Back on topic, I wonder if any adrenal hormones or metabolic functions are known to be governed by cycles longer than diurnal ones?

 

[Justin30]

Low serotonin, dopamine, epi / norepi. No insomnia in prior life

Hi,

Just wondering what tests confirmed this im looking into neurotransmitter testing?

Thanks
..
Justin

 

[Aerowallah]

Yes, the neurotransmitter saliva test.

 

[Justin30]

Yes, the neurotransmitter saliva test.

Where dod you get this done is it a standard test?

Thanks

 

[Aerowallah]

Where dod you get this done is it a standard test?

Thanks

It is standard in the U.S.

 

[Hope78]

Hi Aerowallah,

I had a very similar pattern, and always felt it was not mainly about sleep itself. I was right. It was about gut health! In the the days I was not able to sleep I felt very "hyper" and like poisoned, hard to explain. This lasted about a few days and then I was able to sleep and felt tired all the day.

I now found out it was all about gut intoxication. The endotoxins and interleukins activated the hpa-axis, that's why I felt hyper and poisoned. Because I had high cortisol in these times it probably let to a supression of the hpa axis the next day, leaving me with very low cortisol and tired all day.

I now never feel poisened, my doc prescribed me a new med to heal leaky gut and to prevent entotoxines enter into the blood stream. I also take a supplement to prevent high ammonia.

Unfortunately this does not resolve my ealry morning awakening as this pattern was also present before the onset of this crazy on-off-feeling poisoned-sleep-cycle.

Really don't know if that could be true for you?

So fixing the gut could be kee? Maybe that's why coffee enemas helped?`

I know "only" have to solve my early morning awakening, still don't know why it's happening.

You can pm me if you have questions!

 

[Aerowallah]

Very interesting! I have similar symptoms...more hyper than that feeling of being poisoned...probably due to similar stress hormones. Funny, maybe with the passage of time and more healing, but after four years feeling this cycle it has diminished a lot in the last month since taking diatomaceous earth to assist the CEs with cleansing and limit reabsorption. The Coffee Enemas assist bile flow and liver clearance of EVERYTHING. I don't think the gut was one of my issues. High lead and mercury was.

Of all the things people trial here, what worked wonders for me is a very short list--

organic food
small amounts of live culture kefir
diatomaceous earth
CEs
Trace Minerals (80+ electrolytes)
time!

EVERYTHING else pushed me into insomnia. Will try D3 and a B-multi methylation again in the next 12 months. Meanwhile sardines are a low-dose food equivalent!

 

[Aerowallah]

Just read there is a 6- to 12-day biological rhythm in humans we can now add to the circadian that just about overlaps my multi-day up and down phases. Even now, feeling much better and on a low-dose kind of methylation protocol I have a cyclical onset of symptoms that present all together and suggest detox from the methylation, and then a shorter period of either cessation or much lessening of these.

https://www.theatlantic.com/science...logical-clock-hidden-in-animals-teeth/510977/

I'm amazed more people don't experience this. Recognizing cyclicality like this would help one measure progress and the effectiveness of new protocols, otherwise cause and effect can play havoc with interpretation.

CEs, earth and electrolytes remain the best thing I do to lessen the severity of detox and stabilize energy.

 

[Awags1986]

Just read there is a 6- to 12-day biological rhythm in humans we can now add to the circadian that just about overlaps my multi-day up and down phases. Even now, feeling much better and on a low-dose kind of methylation protocol I have a cyclical onset of symptoms that present all together and suggest detox from the methylation, and then a shorter period of either cessation or much lessening of these.

https://www.theatlantic.com/science...logical-clock-hidden-in-animals-teeth/510977/

I'm amazed more people don't experience this. Recognizing cyclicality like this would help one measure progress and the effectiveness of new protocols, otherwise cause and effect can play havoc with interpretation.

CEs, earth and electrolytes remain the best thing I do to lessen the severity of detox and stabilize energy.

I have a somewhat similar pattern with my symptoms. My pattern is a bit more erratic though. 3 days ON, 2 weeks OFF, 4 days ON, 1 month OFF. I also know when my ON days are coming due to agitation I start to feel mid day. From that point forward I know insomnia(sometimes so bad klonopin/valium won't help, though I do try melatonin, Valerian, niacin first with equally non-existent results) stomach issues, muscle pain, anxiety, depression,fatigue..etc will be rearing their ugly heads for a few days. Then once it passes I literally feel the badness lift, and can be symptom free for weeks at a time. I would love to try the coffee enemas to see how I react. However, I am very sensitive to caffeine in general...so do you think this would be contraindicated in someone with such an intolerance?

 

[Aerowallah]

In my case, I never tolerated coffee well so just never drank it. But with CEs I can break all the rules--I do it at 10 o'clock at night, slightly increase the dose, retain for 15 minutes instead of 12--and NEVER experience stimulation, so they must be right about the different anatomy making all the difference.

But it does seem like your long off periods have less to do with a repeating cycle and more to do with some trigger in your diet or your day. I would take a look at high glutamate, high copper, high histamine, high thiol etc etc foods spiking stress hormones that may already be elevated and take a few days to clear out. 23andme also gives a detox panel of SNPs that impair your ability to clear certain substances that could be food or environmentally sourced. I trialled food and then found a couple years later after getting the SNPs mapped that it confirmed many sensitivities which, in time, no longer became a problem as things balanced out. And CEs which increase the liver's ability to detox covered a lot of the bases for me. It also means I can trial other supplements and make adjustments with a shorter reaction time.

Keep in mind DE added an hour to my sleep immediately!