Other ways of taking b complex and minerals

[Lolinda]

Has anyone tried to simply put water-dissolved B vitamins on the skin? Instead of all the super expensive transdermal creams and patches? Here they claim this works:
http://drmyhill.co.uk/wiki/Minerals_and_vitamins_delivered_through_the_skin
"Another way to get minerals and water soluble vitamins onto and through the skin is using aqueous cream, or if you dislike using the cream via water. Simply mix the daily dose of minerals, water soluble vitamins (all the B vitamins and vitamin C) with just enough warm water to dissolve them. You need surprisingly little! Apply with a sponge all over the body."

I am curious if anyone actually tried it! I will try anywise, but I guess it takes again months of experimenting to find out
- how much vitamins to use (some will not get absorbed)
- if not using water but a cream, which cream works best to increase absorption

So anyone to share experiences?

I am trough all this experimentation with magnesium and it works fantastically! 1ml of Mg-Cl powder, 2 x per day, dissolved in warm water work best for me. Use very little water, so its faster to put it on. Just anywhere, arms, legs, belly, ... If I miss it for a while, I get a very mild crampiness in the legs, ifI take too much there was also some sign, I forgot...

I tried the same with sulfur (epsom salt), it gives me more energy, but also pain, wether I smear it on the skin (like the Mg-Cl) or bath in it. The pain is not on the skin and not on the site of application, but in the legs, under the skin, as if it was on the surface of the muscles or in the blood vessels close to the skin, I dont know.... Anyone experiences? Other skin applicable sources of sulfur?

 

[aaron_c]

I tried getting B2 transdermally. It worked...insofar as it made me sick like taking too much oral B2 does (I was hoping it would bypass that part). But B2 goes bad when exposed to sunlight plus it stains like no one's business, so I wouldn't recommend it. I put it on my arms then put on a long-sleeved shirt that I didn't mind getting all yellowed. I think I mixed it with some kind of gel (glycerine?) and menthol crystals (to help it penetrate the skin).

 

[Lolinda]

@aaron_c thanks for sharing! I have some essential mint oil. When your menthol crystals do it for skin penetration, I hope the mint oil will do too. Regarding dosage, how much B2 did you use? And how much oral B2 gave you the same symptoms? I am curious about the absorption ratio!
Was the B2 the FNM form or plain ordinary B2? Where did you get the powder? (Just open a capsule? - that's my plan)

 

[aaron_c]

Hmm...it was about a year ago and all I have to go on is memory.... I don't know if it was FMN or regular B2. I got the powder from purebulk.com, and I think there are other companies that sell it on amazon too. It's just pure B2 powder. I'm not even sure how much B2 I put in the gel. I think my plan was to apply it and see how much I needed, then work my way back to the dosage. But since the whole experiment failed I never got that far.

I know I said this before, but just in case you didn't see: If you do it, I would recommend doing it away from light and also away from any clothing you don't want stained yellow. Other b vitamins won't give you this problem, just B2.

 

[Lolinda]

OK, I see its to long for exact dosages. But just very roghly: Did you staru woth morebthan the oral dosage (and planned to work from above downwards)? Or did you start at a lower dosage than orally (and planned to go upwards) ?

Yeah, I got that, B2 stains. - Thanks for the hint!! I will use the uggliest socks I have and cream my soles

 

[aaron_c]

Socks: Smart!

If I had to guess I would say I probably aimed for something approximately equal to the oral dosage.

 

[Lolinda]

Thank you!! -> Then I better start with really low doses on everything thats risky in me. It is actually fairly surprising to me that a roughly equal dose gave you the same issues. I would have guessed that transdermally maybe a tenths arrives in the bloodstream...

I hope some further people will contribute experiences!! Anyone?

Today I will start with a first experiment, sthg very low risk and high utility for me. not even a vitamin, but: transdermal glycine:
http://chriskresser.com/5-reasons-why-even-vegetarians-need-gelatin/
Gelatin helps you sleep.
Glycine from gelatin has been found to help with sleep. One study found that 3 grams of glycine given to subjects before bedtime produced measurable improvements in sleep quality. Many of my clients swear by gelatin as an effective sleep aid without bothersome side effects, in contrast to medications and even natural sleep aids like melatonin, which can sometimes cause grogginess

Orally it causes me digestion probs. I have a bad SIBO or SIFO. But I feel that wonderful calming effect Chris Kresser describes.

Btw @aaron_c I am curious, what does your profile photo depict?

 

[aaron_c]

Btw @aaron_c I am curious, what does your profile photo depict?

Flowers in the snow.

It is actually fairly surprising to me that a roughly equal dose gave you the same issues.

I agree...but you did make me guess Hmm...you know, it occurs to me that I slathered as much of the stuff on my arms as I could, which makes me think that maybe my concoction was more concentrated than I remember. It also makes me wonder if you will be able to get enough from your feet just in terms of surface area. Well, I look forward to hearing how it goes for you.

 

[Lolinda]

I am happy: I tried 3 miniscoops (~1.2g in total) of glycine on my skin to see if I get that wonderful calming effect like from gelatine or broth ( which I do not tolerate). It was weak, but yes it was there. First I thought it did not work. But then it came in a delayed fashion. With broth or gelatine it is stronger and much faster. Anywise: it worked!! And my gut motility issues improved too. Double happy!!
I thank it to Chris Kresser for giving me the idea. And here I read some research on this double action of glycine: inhibitory in the CNS, excitatory in the gut. Exactly what I need. And what I would have needed all my life so far...
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2278892/

Now the next thing is P5P. I will be back in some days when received and tried.

(Your profile pic is good because it is not so obvious. I thought sthg like frozen roses. But still it leaves some room for interpretation, which makes one curious. I think this is largely the big trick famous artists use: make it say something but a bit unclear what. Then the people start thinking and while thinking they develop interest. And then they buy it. Essentially, they dont buy the artwork, but their own thinking about it )

 

[Lolinda]

I tried getting B2 transdermally. It worked...insofar as it made me sick like taking too much oral B2 does (I was hoping it would bypass that part).

What issues do you get from B2? I am curious!

 

[aaron_c]

What issues do you get from B2? I am curious!

I get what I think of as an ammonia or Asymmetric Dimethyl Arginine (ADMA) reaction. My brain gets increasingly fuzzy and panicked, my body feels like the blood or lymph or chi or something isn't moving...it's hard to describe, but very uncomfortable. I get slightly more short of breath, usually...although not sure if that happens with B2. In the past, this has lead to deep depressions...although I can't remember if I let that happen with the B2 experiment (I may have cut the B2 off too quickly or taken BH4 to prevent it).

 

[Lolinda]

very interesting that you got panicked & even depressive in the past! here is an explanation:
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...-of-b2-here-a-warning-about-riboflavin.31639/
B2 lowers serotonin and should only be taken in small doses through the day.
lack of serotonin makes susceptibility to panic. it also can contribute to depression.
I became interested in this cause B2 made my motility suffer. serotonin improves motility.

- maybe this info is good for you. my next try will be b6 in a small dose + b2 in a very small dose, divided through the day. for me, even small doses of b6 such as 4mg cause a very small but noticeable increase in my polyneuropathy (tingling and loss of feeling in feet) i wish I knew why. I will try to avoid by distributing over the day.

 

[Lolinda]

RESORPTION OF TRANSDERMAL VITAMINS AND AMINO ACIDS

I experimented quite a bit during the last weeks, asked several people for advice, read stuff. For anyone interested, I summarize here my findings.

Speed of resorption

all the following are experiences from an as simple as possible transdermal application of vitamins and amino acids: put them into a tiny amount of water in a mini-cup, mix with a finger and smear on a limb. cover limb afterwards as vitamins arent supposed to sunbath Hint from @aaron_c : if using B2, make sure its not an issue if the cloth gets orange.

after repeatedly taking transdermally single amino acids and single vitamins, I found from the reactions that B6 and B3 has a clearly noticeable effect in me within 1-2 hours, glycine seems to have no fast effect but a clearly noticeable slow effect in several hours which finishes at roughly maybe 8h or so.
adding to this, I had small but noticeable side effects from B6 and B3, which stopped increasing after the same 1-2h after application.

=> in total my conclusion is that diluted in plain water and smeared on the skin, B3 and B6 resorb fast, in 1-2h. glycine resorbs in a "timed release" fashion within some 8h.
=> this corresponds well to the fact that these vitamins are water soluble and glycine is in tiny morsels when I smear it on the skin.
=> my next plan is to try the b vits in small divided doses through the day, to avoid even the smallest side effects.

if anyone wonders why I take individual b vitamins (where it is known that these act in concert):
1. this way I can make such observation as above - I can attribute effects to causes. Meanwhile I started using combinations of vitamins. in the effects I notice the contributions of the individual vitamins.
2. in me everything is super risky, so before I take a combo, I better test them one by one to know if sthg totally crazy happens. Fortunately nothing happened apart from barely noticeable side effects.

Rate of resorption

Seems to be in the same ballpark as when taken orally. Probably even better. I found it surprising that the skin resorbs so well. As @alicec pointed out in a post below, the skin has a lipid membrane that is difficult to pass for water soluble stuff. (my skin never greasy, maybe that helps? as it is hot summer here, I swet, so I could imagine that the swet glands could provide a water-solute entry. bare speculation!) At the other hand, transdermal stuff gets into the peripheral blood directly without passing through the liver first, which usually filters out most of what we put in. Maybe the two hindrances (lipid layer vs liver filter) hold balance, depending on a variety of individual factors? In all cases, its extremely difficult to find skin resorption rates anywhere, and if there is a statement its very wide from-to estimate. So it is probably totally individual. Having said that, in a post above this one, @aaron_c reported esperiences that fit mine: comparing transdermal to oral intake, largely simillar quantities lead to largely simillar effects.

I have best comparison values for B6 as I have taken it orally, then transdermally, then transdermally with a cofactor (B2). I was watching in all cases the same beneficial effect: improvement in gastric motility (ok, this is very special, others will have different effects. B6 improves serotonine, serotonine improves gastric motility.):

I had largely the same effects from:
- 10 mg B6 orally
- 4 mg B6 transdermally
- 2/3 mg B6 + 1/3 mg B2 transdermally (thanks to @Gondwanaland for the hint to use these two in combo

I am not sure if the oral and the transdermal experiment are really different, because I did not try 10mg B6 transdermally and 4mg B6 orally.

All the transdermal applications were plain simple dilutions in tiny amounts of water. The effect does not seem to depend on how much water one uses. when trying the B6 B2 combo transdermally, it was really just drops into a minicup, mixed with a finger and smeared with that finger on a limb. Earlier, when taking the 4mg B6 I used more water and smeared a whole leg or two. No difference.

transdermal cremes and patches you can buy

I collected these before discovering that I can do it myself. I think they are not worth the money. An exception might be B12 which is a huge molecule. An exception is also if you want timed release which some of them provide.



http://www.leesilsby.com/transdermal-b-complex-cream/
there is no statement on timed release, so probably it gets resorbed too fast and is peed out in urine

Each Serving Contains Amount per 0.5ml
Vitamin B1 (as Thiamine HCl) 5mg
Vitamin B2 (as Riboflavin-5-Phosphate) 7.5mg
Vitamin B3 (as Niacinamide) 25mg
Vitamin B5 (as Pantothenic Acid) 12.5mg
Vitamin B6 (as Pyridoxal-5-Phosphate) 12.5mg
Biotin 100mcg
Folinic Acid (optional) 400mcg


http://www.leesilsby.com/other-b-complex-transdermals/
they have different cremes:

B-Complex Transdermal Cream without P-5-P

Leucovorin Transdermal

Methylcobalamin Transdermal

Methylcobalamin/Folinic Acid/TMG Cream

Niacinamide Transdermal

Pyridoxal-5-Phosphate (P-5-P) Transdermal Cream

Riboflavin-5-Phosphate (R-5-P) Transdermal Cream

Thiamine Transdermal
http://www.ageforce.com/healthblog/374-b-vitamins-–why-they’re-important
no data on quantities, no statement on timed release.

• B1 (Thiamine)
• B2 (Riboflavin)
• B3 (Niacin)
• B5 (Pantothenic Acid)
• B6 (Pyridoxalphosphate P5P)
• B7 (Biotin)
• B9 (Folic Acid as Methylfolate)
• Vitamin B12 patch (Hydroxy Cobalamin)

http://www.b12oils.com/BGroupBuy.htm
B1, B2, B3, B5, B6 and B12 premixed in the one easy to use preparation. Now with vitamin H (biotin).

they answered nicely by email to my question on quantities:

Dose per 0.25 ml squirt
Vitamin B1 Thiamine 0.5 mg
Vitamin B2 Riboflavin 0.025 mg
Vitamin B3 Nicotinamide 2.5 mg
Vitamin B5 Pantothenol 1.25 mg
Vitamin B6 Pyridoxal 1.25 mg
Biotin 0.15 mg
AdenosylCbl 0.5 mg

slowly releases over hours to give more uniform dosing so that less is lost in urine.


multivitamin patch. resorbs in 10h:
http://texastransdermals.com/products-2/

B3 patches
https://www.amazon.com/Niacinamide-Vitamin-B3-Cream-Serum/dp/B01B3U40UG/ref=sr_1_6_a_it?ie=UTF8&qid=1468001734&sr=8-6&keywords=vitamin+cream
this is the only transdermal creme with ALA. also sold on amazon:
http://hormonesolutionscenter.com/product/b-complex-cream-by-sarati/

 

[dannybex]

very interesting that you got panicked & even depressive in the past! here is an explanation:
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...-of-b2-here-a-warning-about-riboflavin.31639/
B2 lowers serotonin and should only be taken in small doses through the day.
lack of serotonin makes susceptibility to panic. it also can contribute to depression.
I became interested in this cause B2 made my motility suffer. serotonin improves motility.

- maybe this info is good for you. my next try will be b6 in a small dose + b2 in a very small dose, divided through the day. for me, even small doses of b6 such as 4mg cause a very small but noticeable increase in my polyneuropathy (tingling and loss of feeling in feet) i wish I knew why. I will try to avoid by distributing over the day.

It's worth noting that the opposite is also true -- high levels of serotonin can cause panic and worse. Thousands of people take 400mgs of riboflavin a day for migraine prevention/treatment, without drastically affecting their serotonin levels.

Also, if you get neuropathy from B6 (as I have in the past, but am going to retry again soon), it may be due to not enough B3, which also has a tryptophan/serotonin connection.

If one isn't getting enough B3 (niacin), the tryptophan is broken down to make B3. During this process, a neurotoxin called quinolinic acid is produced, which may -- may -- be the cause of the neuropathy, etc. But if one gets sufficient niacin, then the tryptophan won't be broken down in the first place, and quinolinic will be low.

And although there's some controversy here, a study showed that B6 supplementation caused retention of quinolinic acid, but excretion of QA returned to normal when B6 was stopped.

 

[Lolinda]

study showed that B6 supplementation caused retention of quinolinic acid, but excretion of QA returned to normal when B6 was stopped.

@dannybex !! thanks 1000x for your post. I have been investigating this mystery since a while.
--> Could you give me a link to this study?

In particular, the connection to quinolinic acid is great. In fact, mine was high in 2013: 7.7 mmol/mol creatinine, normal: .52 - 2.4. Interestingly, my urinary excretion of B6 was normal in the same test panel.

While I knew its a neurotoxin, I never made the connection to my recent neuropathy. (loss of feeling in feet, tingling and burning in soles).
I will get my new results for the same panel from the same lab soon. Have you had your quinolinic acid tested?

 

[Gondwanaland]

Has anyone tried to simply put water-dissolved B vitamins on the skin?

@ahmo used to get a lot of supplements via foot baths. Do you still do it, @ahmo ?

I tried the same with sulfur (epsom salt), it gives me more energy, but also pain, wether I smear it on the skin (like the Mg-Cl) or bath in it. The pain is not on the skin and not on the site of application, but in the legs, under the skin, as if it was on the surface of the muscles or in the blood vessels close to the skin, I dont know.... Anyone experiences? Other skin applicable sources of sulfur?

@alicec uses concentrated Epsom Salts transdermally successfully.

For me both magnesium sulphate and glycinate cause a burning sensation in the ureters and calves (I think it is vascular/endothelial pain in the calves).

 

[alicec]

uses concentrated Epsom Salts transdermally successfully.

Yes I wanted the sulfate but didn't want to soak in an Epsom's salt bath, so just made up a saturated solution and apply about 5 ml to the skin each day. I follow immediately with a body lotion.

I think the body lotion is important for two reasons. First the salt solution is drying and a bit irritating as well as leaving a gritty feeling on the skin. The body lotion overcomes these problems.

Second, and even more importantly, the body lotion helps penetration of the skin.

While there is undoubtedly some penetration of the skin if vitamins, minerals and amino acids are applied directly to the skin, it will be limited because the substances have to traverse a lipid membrane and most of them are hydrophilic (ie water loving) rather than hydrophobic (fat loving).

A body lotion which includes fats will help in the transport. I use one which has a multilamellar structure which mimics the skin outer layers. Water soluble ingredients are trapped between the lipid layers and seem to be carried into the skin more readily.

Ethanol is another penetration enhancer which some have used. This is also very drying on the skin so a lotion would probably be helpful afterwards.

 

[Lolinda]

And although there's some controversy here, a study showed that B6 supplementation caused retention of quinolinic acid, but excretion of QA returned to normal when B6 was stopped

@Gondwanaland this is the post from dannybex, above. I think he has resolved our shared b6 neuropathy mystery

@dannybex @Gondwanaland I opened a new thread on this vitamins cause polyneuropathy issue:
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...-loss-of-feeling-in-feet-pain-tingling.45736/
I linked you there. Actually, do you get an alert for that automatically?

 

[ahmo]

@ahmo used to get a lot of supplements via foot baths. Do you still do it, @ahmo ?

I'm generally not needing footbaths these days. And far fewer supps also. Yay detox.

 

[dannybex]

@dannybex !! thanks 1000x for your post. I have been investigating this mystery since a while.
--> Could you give me a link to this study?

In particular, the connection to quinolinic acid is great. In fact, mine was high in 2013: 7.7 mmol/mol creatinine, normal: .52 - 2.4. Interestingly, my urinary excretion of B6 was normal in the same test panel.

While I knew its a neurotoxin, I never made the connection to my recent neuropathy. (loss of feeling in feet, tingling and burning in soles).
I will get my new results for the same panel from the same lab soon. Have you had your quinolinic acid tested?

Yes, mine was high too, but not sure of the number right now. Still, too high.

I don't have the studies handy at the moment -- running on fumes right now -- but here are a couple of screen caps. The first shows that quinolinic is low when one gets sufficient B3, and I think -- think -- is only formed because tryptophan is broken down to 'make B3'.

The second is a quote from a smaller study -- not the main one -- where QA excretion went DOWN when taking B6, in a study of two siblings.