Curcumin for muscoskeletal / lactate pain

[energyoverload]

Thought it would be best to document my experience here. Because my pain became so bad (predominantly muscoskeletal but also some minor lingering nerve pain) curcumin Longvida brand administered at 1.5 grams every 6 hours (6 grams daily) profoundly began to improve my pain by around 2 weeks.

It's a very high dose and ridiculously expensive but when resistant to all other interventions this has provided some profound relief from pain.

 

[Deltrus]

That does sound very expensive. Make sure to add black pepper in, it makes curcumin last longer.

Trans-Resveratrol is very similar to curcumin, I really like both.

 

[shannah]

I'm taking 6 grams daily as well but dosed 1500 mg every 3 hours 4 x day. It's not touching the pain but decreases the inflammation.

 

[Hip]

It's a very high dose and ridiculously expensive

Do you know that you can buy curcumin more cheaply as a food coloring called natural yellow 3. This food coloring is just another name for curcumin. You can buy natural yellow 3 by the kilo online.

Another source of cheap curcumin by the kilo is Aliexpress.

This patent tells you how to complex curcumin with oil, which improves absorption in the gut.


It's very messy stuff, though, curcumin powder. Seems to get everywhere and stain everything. Bleach or Cif will remove the stains, however.

Curcumin is a potent antiviral for coxsackievirus B, a virus linked to ME/CFS.

 

[energyoverload]

That does sound very expensive. Make sure to add black pepper in, it makes curcumin last longer.

Trans-Resveratrol is very similar to curcumin, I really like both.

Which symptoms has transresveratrol helped improve? It's not clear in literature but possibly as a SIRUTIN1 agonist, I think the AMPK activation is found secondary to the former. Frustratingly I did a short trial of Metformin (2 weeks) 500mg twice daily for AMPK activation, but had to stop as worsening of lactate accumulation.

Also with the Longvida brand Curcumin Piperine is not needed for co-administration as already optimised for enhanced bioavailability & pharmacokinetics do clarify this is the case in trials.

 

[shannah]

Hi @Deltrus

I know about the black pepper increasing absorption. For some reason it sets my burning legs and feet on fire even more. Don't really know why but would like to. I know that it's high oxalate so perhaps that is triggering something. I'll have to explore the link that Hip sent about the oil.

Hi @Hip

Thanks for your thoughts.

Maybe it's the antiviral properties against coxsackie B that's helping @energyoverload and alleviating the pain in the process.

I wasn't aware that curcumin could be purchased as a food colouring. That's good to know and I'll have to check it out. Thanks. I'm using 95% extract so I'll check to see what strength it is available as a food colouring.

I'm purchasing from China but the contact I met was originally through contacting members on Aliexpress. I'm getting a pretty good price on it but am always on the lookout for better pricing.

You've obviously handled curcumin before or known someone who does to know how it gets into everything. Do you encapsulate your own supplements?

Just opening the packages it puffs up into the air and settles a nice little film onto everything in sight. I cover myself from head to toe, wear a mask and cover everything in the room where I'm working with it. By the time I'm done, my body is screaming at me and I can do nothing more so a dear helpful friend of mine comes to clean up, remove the drop cloths to the washing machine, clean the equipment, wash the floor etc.

No matter how careful we are, I still manage to see orange spots around the house, orange sheets etc. As you say, bleach removes it easily but bleach and I do not get along well.

Customs opened the last shipment and we laughed how the person could very likely have gone home orange.

 

[u&iraok]

Also with the Longvida brand Curcumin Piperine is not needed for co-administration as already optimised for enhanced bioavailability & pharmacokinetics do clarify this is the case in trials.

Hi @Deltrus

I know about the black pepper increasing absorption. For some reason it sets my burning legs and feet on fire even more. Don't really know why but would like to. I know that it's high oxalate so perhaps that is triggering something. I'll have to explore the link that Hip sent about the oil.

Hi @Hip

If you can't handle the peppers you can try a more bioavailable form that has been developed:

While it’s difficult to get adequate levels of curcumin into the bloodstream, Super Bio-Curcumin® utilizes a patented curcumin formulation called BCM-95® to get up to 7 times more curcumin compound into your bloodstream than conventional curcumin supplements.
Studies show that just one 400 mg capsule of Super Bio-Curcumin® with BCM-95® per day provides curcumin blood concentrations equivalent to 2,500 mg of typical 95% curcumin products

This is a quote for Life Extension's product. This is what I take--I don't know if there are any other brands with BCM-95 out there.

I've gotten great relief from my aching muscles and especially my neck discomfort. I usually quit taking it for a month or two because I don't want my body to get used to it--not sure if that will happen but I don't want to take a chance.

Every time I quit my muscles ache more. My pain is not bad though, more in the discomfort range.

 

[Deltrus]

Longvida brand Curcumin Piperine is not needed for co-administration as already optimised for enhanced bioavailability & pharmacokinetics do clarify this is the case in trials.

My impression from reading around a bit previously is that Longvida curcumin still goes through the same detox pathways as normal curcumin and thus piperine helps.

On this page:http://superfoodly.com/best-turmeric-curcumin-supplement/

it says that longvida curcumin acts by having a solid lipid shell which lets it pass through membranes. I believe that this is its only mechanism of action, it still gets detoxed the same way by the liver.

At any rate black pepper is dirt cheap. No harm in taking 1/8th of a teaspoon.

Resveratrol is very comparable to curcumin. Both need black pepper to increase bio-availability strangely. I've tried many strong anti-oxidants and resveratrol is the most reliable. NAC and chaga mushroom were stronger but resveratrol is still quite strong. Curcumin reduces joint inflammation more, but resveratrol decreases muscle pain and brain fog better IMO.

There's this study on resveratrol for fibro: http://www.healthrising.org/forums/threads/wine-substance-beats-lyrica-in-fibromyalgia-study.4249/

 

[Deltrus]

Hi @Deltrus

I know about the black pepper increasing absorption. For some reason it sets my burning legs and feet on fire even more. Don't really know why but would like to. I know that it's high oxalate so perhaps that is triggering something. I'll have to explore the link that Hip sent about the oil.

Piperine has a huge variety of effects. It even works in the mitochondria. From wikipedia:

The pungency of piperine is caused by activation of the heat- and acidity-sensing TRPV ion channel TRPV1 and TRPA1 on nociceptors (pain-sensing nerve cells).[12]

The full mechanism of piperine's bioavailability-enhancing abilities is unknown,[13] but it has been found to inhibit human CYP3A4 and P-glycoprotein, enzymes important for themetabolism and transport of xenobiotics and metabolites.[14][15] In animal studies, piperine also inhibited other CYP 450 enzymes important for drug metabolism.

It doesn't mention the mitochondria effects on wikipedia. It works as a mitochondria uncoupler, making mitochondria send out some wasted energy as heat. Aspirin and coffee also do this. From what I have read, mitochondrial uncouplers can provide a hormesis effect which strengthens them.

It is probable that the burning feeling is from the TRP receptor activation. Or perhaps a combo with the mitochondria effect. As for why you get more burning feeling than most people, maybe the nerves are hyperexcitable, or maybe there are more TRP receptors, or maybe the brain is sensitized.

 

[u&iraok]

Curcumin reduces joint inflammation more, but resveratrol decreases muscle pain and brain fog better IMO.

Resveratrol helps muscle pain and brain fog? I'll have to check that out by stopping taking it for awhile. I know it makes me feel better.

There's this study on resveratrol for fibro: http://www.healthrising.org/forums/threads/wine-substance-beats-lyrica-in-fibromyalgia-study.4249/

Awesome, thanks for posting the study! Quote from the study:

A resveratrol plus rice bran oil combination, however, was the most effective pain reducer.

I'm a huge fan of rice bran oil, it makes me feel better too. I've been using grapeseed oil instead for a while and notice the difference, I need to switch back to rice brain oil.

And to know that two of my favorite supplements work better together? Weelll...

 

[perchance dreamer]

I take both Longvida and the Meriva form of curcumin. They have different effects for me.

Longvida really helped me when I developed a scary short-term memory problem. I continue to take it in the hope that it reduces brain inflammation. It does nothing for my pain, though.

Meriva helps my pain a lot. I take the sustained release form in the morning and the regular release around 5:00 p.m. I came up with that routine because taking the sustained release at 5:00 p.m. had an adverse effect on my sleep.

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B01D8V0962/ref=twister_B00HIMCA9W?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

http://www.amazon.com/Thorne-Resear...&qid=1462899486&sr=1-3&keywords=thorne+meriva

 

[perchance dreamer]

I forgot to mention that Longvida has a calming effect on me, but Meriva does not.

 

[Hip]

You've obviously handled curcumin before or known someone who does to know how it gets into everything. Do you encapsulate your own supplements?

I do encapsulate supplement powders sometimes, but I find it is such a boring job that wherever possible, I tend to just swallow the pure supplement powders with some water.

In the case of curcumin, what I have been doing recently is placing 25 grams of curcumin powder with 75 grams of cooking oil in a jar or bottle, and then shaking to mix them. Then to take the curcumin, I pour out 5 ml of the curcumin / oil mixture (which contains around 1 gram of curcumin), and swallow that. It is slightly less messy than using powder, and moreover, the oil helps with the absorption / bioavailability of curcumin in the gut.

No matter how careful we are, I still manage to see orange spots around the house, orange sheets etc. As you say, bleach removes it easily but bleach and I do not get along well.

I find Cif works better than bleach, and as it is more gentle, you can use Cif to clean your hands.

 

[shannah]

In the case of curcumin, what I have been doing recently is placing 25 grams of curcumin powder with 75 grams of cooking oil in a jar or bottle, and then shaking to mix them. Then to take the curcumin, I pour out 5 ml of the curcumin / oil mixture (which contains around 1 gram of curcumin), and swallow that. It is slightly less messy than using powder, and moreover, the oil helps with the absorption / bioavailability of curcumin in the gut.

@Hip What kind of oil are you mixing the curcumin with?

 

[Hip]

What kind of oil are you mixing the curcumin with?

I am currently using one-third cod liver oil and two-thirds olive oil.

 

[Starfive]

If just starting curcumin what may I expect. What dose to start with and for how long to experience any change.
Also, I believe the most excruciating pain for me is the peripheral nerve pain. Possible lactic acid problem?
Thanks for your help.

 

[perchance dreamer]

How long it takes to become effective might depend on the form. In my case, Longvida started helping my memory after 2 or 3 weeks.

Meriva took about 1 week to start helping my pain. I don't experience nerve pain, but have osteoarthritis, disc problems, and bursitis and tendonitis.

 

[perchance dreamer]

I forgot to add that I also have fibromyalgia pain.

For me, neither the Longvida nor the Meriva had the instant gratification of taking Advil. It took awhile for both to become effective, and I need to keep taking them both to keep the benefits. I don't mind them being maintenance supplements, though, because I get so much benefit.

If I get a bad flare from doing something like improper lifting (nothing's worse than self-inflicted wounds!), I will take Advil. That doesn't happen often, though.

 

[Starfive]

Thanks perchance,I will look into getting some Longvida to start and see what improves. Memory could sure use help!

 

[energyoverload]

Has anyone tried the isolated Pterostilbene component of Resveratrol that is believed to have greater bio availability on its own, that may be less susceptible to undergo glucoronidation perhaps - I need to check this! Hence that may determine in part the degree to which bioperine enhances bio availability.

For me personally the Longvida curcumin helped what I believe to be the lactate determined muscular pain, not neuropathic. This same pain and other symptoms also respond quite interestingly to isorbide mononitrate 30mg q 8 hours, 15mg q 8 hours for first week, so potential benefit in part derived through increased vascular clearance rate of lactate - as exertion induced muscluar pain relief was < 1 week. So from what I understand less likely to be mitochondrial biogenesis downstream from eNOS.


Based on resveratrol being as a SIRT1 activator and some evidence of curcumin doing the same (but some conflicts this), how do subjective improvements of high dose resveratrol or Pterostilbene compare for exertion exacerbated muscular pain? I wanted to see if resveratrol addition would further enhance curcumin muscle improvement but didn't get round to due to cost.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23880291
http://journals.plos.org/plosbiology/article?id=10.1371/journal.pbio.1001603
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24755072