3,000 year old Earliest Record of CFS/ME? GU Syndrome: A Radical Rare TCM treatment

[wintersky]

Good Day All,

Apparently, other than the usual TCM viewpoint of CFS/ME proposed by Giovanni Maciocia & other TCM doctors, it seems there's another radical CFS viewpoint that's much more complicated by Heiner Freuhauf, a TCM doctor & Chinese Medicine Scholar. It seems the syndrome was already first recorded in China 3,000 years ago in TCM classical texts, along with the proposed radical treatment method. Gu syndrome was also very briefly mentioned before in this forum:

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...nt-of-cfs-oriental-medicine.9589/#post-176301

"GU Syndrome": Mysterious illness of Super-infections of multiple different parasites/pathogens of funguses, viruses etc all at the same time or appearing on and off but never-ending even after multiple years or decades.... Or chronic inflammation that never goes away for endless years. Symptoms include "constant flu-like feeling", brain fog, unexplainable illness origins or viral readings despite never stepping into other countries/places with known viral problems, neuromuscular problems of muscle weaknesses etc, progressing states of physical exhaustion along with inexplicable weird symptoms... Chronic Parasitism.

Apparently, the above illness categorisation was recorded 3,000 years ago in China & have remained all but forgotten by all modern TCM doctors, even famous doctors, but was revived by Heiner Freuhauf because there were quite some patients who fitted the above symptoms profile but was never satisfactorily treated using the usual TCM framework treatment. Hence, he went to dig out ancient TCM classical texts and found GU syndrome was written there..

Compared with usual TCM treatment which may take months, "Gu Syndrome" treatment takes an average of 3 years & the treatment violates certain existing TCM framework principles too. Every single herb in "Gu Syndrome" treatment must have anti-parasitic (funguses, viruses etc) properties & every single herb under a certain category (out of 5 or 6 categories) must be changed within 6 weeks or less to prevent Parasitic mutation & adaptation to avoid destruction. The idea is about fumigation, filling the body so often with only anti-parasitic herbs that no parasitic herbs can survive.

The 1st modern day mention:
http://www.biroco.com/yijing/Gu_syndrome.pdf

An Interview of Gu Syndrome with Dr Heiner:
http://www.acupuncture-atlanta.com/articles/fruehauf_guinterviewENG.pdf

Another different Interview:
http://www.classicalchinesemedicine...atory-diseases-with-autoimmune-complications/

I will mention more about the complicated TCM-relevant issues to this approach if anyone has any interest in this.

Wish you all a Good Day,
Wintersky

 

[Effi]

hi @wintersky Do you know of any patients who have been successfully treated by Heiner Fruehauf? Very interesting to see something so similar being described 3000 years ago.

 

[msf]

I´m pretty sure they didn´t explain GU disease (is that the romanization?) in that way 3000 years ago, since they did not know about viruses, or even the germ theory of disease. That´s not to say that it might not have some effect on them, just that they did not understand how it worked. There is a thread at the moment about chinese skullcap, which may work for some people but for very different reasons to those given in Chinese Traditional Medicine. I like the kung fu analogy - it may help you beat up someone, but it won´t be because you have more/better qi.

 

[roller]

what a find, @wintersky - thanks

many ppl are anciety-ridden and such a 'concept' (that we have always been naturally full of ugly parasites, like helminths, amoebas ++) will be outright rejected.

particularly the fact that they come along with 'their healthy food' must be ripping them out of their comfort zone.

 

[brenda]

I have thought that l had this condition after reading about it. It seemed so strange that whatever l tried helped then stopped helping and l just seemed unable to mount an organised attack on my Lyme disease, even after eight years of rifing. It was indeed as though there was some curse and some sort of death wish involved.

I would make some inroads with nutrients then suddenly would have to stop and could not get out of this cycle even though yes l was improved through diet. But still, my heart and thyroid were getting worse. I even had to stop frankincense recently due to a rash.

I have had a breakthrough though that makes me think that there has been some sort if spiritual powers at work. Instead of feeling overwhelmed l have become organised and able to tackle things one at a time.

I am now feeling guided and some of it is from dreams. The first issue was about hydration which l have sorted and the issue now is about improved dental hygiene.

I am also using the new spooky plasma tube and Lyme frequencies indispersed with other issues l want to address. I treated constipation in one session and it has gone. Everything feels different now and l know my progress will not be stopped. Thanks for bringing the subject up.

 

[adreno]

3000 years old... MumME?

 

[Mij]

@wintersky what are your thoughts on congee? My friends friend slow cooks (24hrs) brown rice in several litres of water and drinks this through out the day and says his friend who was on all sorts of meds for diabetes, high bp, gut issues cured himself after 6 months.

 

[wintersky]

@Effi I've only started reading about this only like a day before i posted. I havent read enough to know specific cases. Heiner Freuhauf specifically mentions CFS/ME as falling under GU syndrome, so i personally believe that he has had some sort of success (i've been busy with Electrotherapy +TCM research for a sick Epilepsy friend lately). Hopefully somebody on this forum has done enough extensive online research to find the specific cases, or contact Heiner Freuhauf directly perhaps. That would be good.

In my limited time so far, what i've read is a old TCM doctor doing technical discussion of complex cases (no specific mention of which illnesses) falling under GU Syndrome having significant progress where they previously didnt using traditional TCM approaches (shorter term approach). So maybe somebody might also contact this old TCM doctor below who has done GU treatment:

http://www.indiadivine.org/content/topic/1893119-gu-syndrome/?do=findComment&comment=6934777

@msf Actually there was knowledge of pathogens 3,000 years ago already. For instance, it's been mentioned in a classical TCM text Yellow Emperor Classic Of Medicine (Huang Di Nei Jing). The approach is naturally different from the conventional Western/Modern approach to pathogens as TCM has it's own modality.

Also, what i find interesting here rather is that there had to be massive patients of prevalent GU syndrome cases back in ancient times since there was poor hygiene, sanitation & standards of living. Epidemics were common in those days & it would not be hard to think that there would be huge number of cases of Super-Infections of multiple & varying viruses, parasites, funguses etc concurrently or sequentially or recurrently. Hence, the benefit here i think is that they had ample experience with live experimentation of experimental treatment approaches with vast numbers of patients.

The bad thing here is that this knowledge of GU syndrome & of treating Super-Infections have been practically totally forgotten for so long until recent years in the TCM framework, probably because Super-Infections are relatively much more rare than compared to before. It seems there is a great deal of mention about GU syndrome in the ancient TCM texts, but that one would have to undergo an onerous task of specifically digging them out.

@Mij Ingenious idea!!! (without going into long details as the focus is on GU syndrome here)

@brenda Keep Fighting!!!

=====================================================================

One thing that strikes me is the idea of Super-infection/GU syndrome being analogized by a 16th Century Chinese Medicine Scholar as Oil (Parasites, Viruses, Funguses) Seeping into Flour (Human Body), that it would be hard to separate the 2 by any conventional or direct or fast means.

In this context, two elements of the ancient Gu approach are most instructive for us. One is the early Chinese realisation that systemic conditions are “like oil that has seeped into flour” and thus require a complex therapeutic regimen that continues for months or even years. Modern research is beginning to confirm that entrenched parasites form a complex symbiotic bond with all aspects of our system, and are generally keyed into vital pathways of our immunological and hormonal response networks(Note 20). To undo this critically balanced equilibrium between maximum parasite success and continuing host survival is difficult, because the two systems move as one.

http://www.biroco.com/yijing/Gu_syndrome.pdf

In addition, Bob Flaws also seems to have studied the issue extensively & is noted as saying that GU Syndrome has a striking resemblance to "Yin Fire" condition which was 1 of the 4 or 5 CFS/ME categories advocated by Giovanni Maciocia who has experience treating CFS/ME patients. "Yin Fire" mention can be found below:

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...y-tcm-tcm-issues-q-a.40176/page-3#post-647492

i gotta run now, so i'll write more later/tomorrow.

Wish you all a Good Day Ahead,
Wintersky

 

[Sushi]

I´m pretty sure they didn´t explain GU disease (is that the romanization?) in that way 3000 years ago, since they did not know about viruses, or even the germ theory of disease. That´s not to say that it might not have some effect on them, just that they did not understand how it worked.

I just asked a very experienced TCM doctor about this and he agreed with the above. He also felt that while there were a few elements in what was described as GU syndrome that were common to ME/CFS, it wasn't describing the same thing.

 

[roller]

the truth will be out

its at its starting block...
when i thought of having pulmonary hypertension i googled it up and down.
there was nothing about schisto at the time.
the only relation i could find was some haplotype thing.

imagine, perhaps even most of those people have taken bosentan ($1,000++ per month) and have undergone years of costly high-tech-check-ups, up to heart-lung-transplants, the wheelchair is an almost certain thing... and ... in fact, they had bilharziosis (or/and very similar candidates, treatment $1++ ) ?
would that be... 'hilarious' ?

but... perhaps the truth wont be out..?
if they make something like an 'immune modulator' that kills all your helminths and protozoa... i mean, much better than anti-psychotics and anti-depressants...and so on
this would be easier to swallow...

fruehauf is good, but i dont think its the treatment for starters.
imo, its the long-term (regular) treatment, after an initial rdx med - which there is nothing effective really atm.
there is no cure and no protection from worms and protozoa.
they are everywhere.
and they have always been.

they are genetically identical to us.
they fit into us like nothing else. like an organ. even though, they destroy.

i think, hulda clark should be attributed in any such publications.
she was the pavemaker. an outright hero, when looking back.
an utterly intelligent women - and investigator.

 

[wintersky]

I just asked a very experienced TCM doctor about this and he agreed with the above. He also felt that while there were a few elements in what was described as GU syndrome that were common to ME/CFS, it wasn't describing the same thing.

Hi Sushi,

To be more specific, there was a general knowledge of pathogens due to epidemics as anti-pathogen herbs were mentioned, but if talking about specific mechanisms of germs/virus transmission, it's not available back then definitely.

In reference to your 2nd point, GU syndrome is a very general characteristic of Super-Infections concurrently with various signs. It refers more to the idea that there are some kind of detectable or undetectable bug, virus or fungus etc residing in the human body & the possible signs of such a status. To say that the GU syndrome treatment directly 100% fits the CFS/ME characteristics is a certain no.

The general idea espoused by Heiner Freuderf is that Deficiency of the body is already present allowing pathogens to invade, with autoimmune/inflammation characteristics going up. Up till this part, this is generally accepted by the TCM community. Where it goes further in the case of GU syndrome as espoused by Heiner, is when the body gets so weakened thereafter that all kinds of pathogens actually reside almost concurrently & the body goes totally out of whack at one point downhill onwards.

Also, from the TCM viewpoint, there are various originating factors as espoused by Giovanni Maciocia, so the symptoms would also vary from person to person. So, personally, as i said before, i would think of GU syndrome as a more extreme state that may/may not describe the originating factors (& certain symptoms), but quite some of the symptoms might be descriptive of this extreme state for some of us here.

One said dangerous mention of GU syndrome is in some GU syndrome cases, a patient takes a high does of Ginseng & will suffer strong reactions in the days following due to Ginseng strongly tonifying the body & pathogens as well. It is not a definitive guide to GU syndrome situation, but as said, it is strongly suggestive of such a situation.

Hence, personally, i think GU syndrome only talks about the entrenched final/harshest evolution characteristics, but one would still have to have an actual basic TCM analysis in combination with tonification of the originating underlying organ disharmonies etc. This is also what is suggested by Heiner, plus Heiner in his mention, also said that the symptom list is not exhaustive (he just presents a steroteyped patient profile).

Hehe. Now i really gotta runnnnn. Hahahaha!

Wish you all a Good Day Ahead,
Wintersky

 

[invisiblejungle]

There are some people on the Lyme forums who say that they've had good results with Heiner Freuhauf's protocol for Gu Syndrome. However, I don't necessarily think that CFS/ME fits into the same boat. Although there are pathogen-related issues, it still hasn't been determined that pathogens are the main underlying cause.

 

[wintersky]

Happy Chinese New Year to all,

@invisiblejungle Hey Invisible. As i also said i my previous post, it might not be the case that pathogens are the main underlying cause. In summary, it might be pre-existing body deficiency (weakness) presenting a lowered immunity system that allows pathogens to get in, which is what Heiner was also saying.

The personal impression so far i got after reading the texts is that Gu syndrome applies to people with Super-Infections or those after a prolonged period (multiple years) of non-recovery using any form of treatment. Whether pathogens are the main cause or not might be irrelevant in the above 2 cases, because they would have have to follow anti-pathogen strategy (GU syndrome) along with finding the main cause because the situation is so knotty/entrenched.

To put it in a different way, while there is the "Find the Mother" (find & treat the originating cause) rule in conceptual theory, but for major chronic illnesses (unyielding) in actual clinical practice (TCM), there ought to almost-equal attention given to treating the non-originating cause due to different aspects mutually-engendering/inter-promoting one another. This is so far, the idea of why some illnesses dont seem to get actual progress/healing no matter how long. For some people with chronic illness, it might be the case that there might be/might not be some sort of visual/superficial-level improvement using a particular treatment method, but the illness might later evolve differently with different symptoms. Hence, personally, i see this mutually-engendering issue as also part of what GU syndrome is about.

Here below, a way more complicated discussion of GU Syndrome (practitioner level discussion):
http://www.chineseherbacademy.org/qidynamic_intro.pdf

Wish you all a Good Day Ahead,
Wintersky