Adenosyl B12: Driver of folate needs?

[Kathevans]

Hey all,

I'm inching along, keeping an Excell chart of dosages and symptoms. I felt somewhat stabilized lately in my introductory methylation approach, which is to say two of the Deadlock Quartet (along with a host of basics) 4,000mcg Enzymatic's Sublingual MeB12 and 1,000mcg Solgar's Metafolin. My sleep was still crap, but I notice that on the days I pushed upward, I'd often get a more restful night. I seem to have fewer folate insufficiency symptoms with this ratio of 4:1 or even 5:1, and this makes sense given my snps.

Because my very first and still worst symptom (besides the sleep) is the pain where the muscles and tendons come together I've always assumed that Adonosyl B-12 would be important for me. And true to form, early experiments with it showed me to be very sensitive. I tried a half of the Source Naturals Dibencozide, then a quarter--each time only one day a week, and each time to fluttering anxiety, followed by challenging nights.

It occurred to me that I'd only get used to the doses if I took it daily, so a few days ago I settled on 1/8 and had only transient anxiety from the pill itself. I decided to take the AdoB12 in the morning and moved my MeB12 and Folate to the afternoon. Is this how those of you who take it daily do it? Or altogether in the mouth in the morning and another dose of MeB12 and folate in the afternoon?

The first day I went for a walk and felt as if I wasn't exhausted, felt as if I could take a deep breath comfortably and fill my lungs with air. That night I had one block of 4 hours of sleep almost unheard of! and a total of 6 hours. The second night I slept almost equally well. Those black-out blocks of sleep were something of a miracle to me.

But last night was a disaster from the start. I took my 1/4 melatonin and within 20 minutes, instead of feeling tired and drifting asleep, I began to feel anxious. There were occasional rapid heartbeats, but nothing dramatic (I am on a very low dose beta blocker, so that might mask stuff). But knowing this was a symptom of something, I got up and took my 300mg of Potassium, and knowing it could also be over-methylation, or high need for folate and I just didn't know what else, I popped 100mg of niacin and over the course of the next hour wound down enough to go to sleep. Only about 2 hours, then another 2 and that was it.

So I'm dragging today and have taken a lot of time to review my Excell chart. I thought I was getting pretty good at recognizing symptoms, but THIS IS WHAT I MISSED:
- from the first day that I took the Ado B12, I had looser than normal stool followed by irritable bowel before bed.
- my prime areas of pain and injury, my right shoulder and left hip were incredibly sore when I moved or to the touch.
- from the first day I took the AdoB12, my nose was running and I was sneezing during the day; at night I was stuffed up (this is always going on to some extent, but it was worse)
- by day 3 of the Ado B12 I was exhausted after the initial hour or two bump--of the sort not improved by potassium
- my trapezius muscles were much tighter and sore and
- when I climbed into the shower last night, I was weepy, weepy, weepy.

Am I right in seeing this as a Folate insufficiency? Those of you who have ramped up, do you find that Ado B12 increases the need for folate? Perhaps similar to B2?

Should I drop the Ado B12 and continue to increase MeB12 and Folate to higher levels before adding the next member of the Quartet? Or should I continue to take both daily for a while--or forever--and begin to titrate my folate to sufficiency?

Thanks for any thoughts on this member of the DQ and how to titrate up with it. It's been just four months that I've been ramping up on the first two and I can see progress. But the road is still bumpy. I want to be brave and not cower!

O' where is my inner warrior?

K

 

[skyebean]

Okay, so.... I have a long backstory to this, but I have found that right now the biggest thing for me is balancing adeno b12 and methylfolate. After a long time of being terrified of methylfolate, and taking greater and greater amounts of niacin - that worked less and less well until it stopped - I finally took the plunge and started experimenting.....

My sleep is my big issue, and inflammation. I started parasite cleansing last month (NOW brand black walnut mix) and it was really helping. I've gone off my latest batch, and trying to find balance again.

Interestingly enough, when I wake up with the jitters, and a temp above 98.6, it's more methylfolate that calms me down, and takes my temp back down. I take my temp many times during the day to see if I need to try and take something else. The methylfolate works earlier in the day, and then as afternoon and evening come on, I haven't been able to get my temps down the past few days.....I also have a cold, and I'm wondering if that is driving up my need for folate. (?) I'm taking TONS, though. Like, 1600 mcgs at a time, several times a day.

Throughout this process, at times a little bit of adeno b12 has balanced me out perfectly - about 750-1500 mcgs. I used to be able to take any amount of methyl b12 without any real effect. Now it makes me wired.

I took lots of notes, too, and through my haze I came up with something of an understanding....that improving methylation increases the need for ATP, and increasing ATP increases the need for methylfolate.

Recently, when I've been balanced temperature-wise, I was taking Pure Encapsulations b complex, a little adeno, and 1600 mcgs of methylfolate 2-4 times a day. Right now I'm taking gobs of methylfolate, and experimenting with the complex and adeno to find balance again. What I have noticed is that I was in a really good mood last night. A high temp for me usually means also a really hostile temper. I feel like the methylfolate is healing so much around my neurotransmitter production and nervous system.

As far as energy goes - that has been a wobbly path upward....when I am low energy I usually feel it's an ATP thing, and adeno b12 sometimes clears that right up. It's not a straight path, and I'm not exactly sure what is doing what - which is why I really try to tolerate a b complex. You never really know what deficiencies you could be causing by getting more of one thing or another.

I can tell you that my ability to exercise is pretty much what it was before I got sick - except I'm not yet back in shape. At the worst of it, trying to do a few sit-ups would rob me of what little energy I had - for days.

I am not sure if what I have shared is coherent. This path has been a long and complex one, without really having super clear answers. I do know that right now the most clear and effective thing for me has been balancing adeno and methylfolate - though that is not perfect, either. Methylfolate - even copious amounts - makes me feel calmer - and I cannot wrap my head around that. I was terrified of it for so long.

Because of Freddd, I took a chance on adeno, and that was a game changer....then I took a chance on high dosing methylfolate...even more of a game changer... I'm wondering now about the carnitine fumerate, but I'm not quite ready to add that to the mix.

One last point - the parasite cleanse was a HUGE thing for me. My temper has calmed way down, my sense of mental agitation, and my sleep is way better - although not perfect... I have read about parasite issues needing to possibly be resolved, and I just never thought it could really be an issue. Mind blown. I've felt better with each round, and will do a third sometime soon.

I hope that info helps....

 

[Kathevans]

@skyebean Well, that's a terrific response! Just the sort of thing I was hoping for.

Sleep and inflammation are surely my worst issues as well. But I do pretty well with the MEB12, now up to about 6,000 mcg/day and the Folate, up to 1,600 mcg. I do take a B-Complex, the Seeking Health, which is highish in niacin at 180mg, but doesn't seem to slow down the methylation symptoms much, so doesn't seem to be much of a problem. I like it's low doses of the basic Bs. But maybe I'll check out Pure Encapsulations... there's always room for improvement!

I haven't had a stool analysis recently, but have in the past and never had a problem with parasites. I'm sure I have some sort of fungal/bacterial stuff out of balance, though as I've had a sore/dry/fissured tongue since I got sick. I had been taking zantac at a low dose for 8 years, and the antibiotics that pushed me over the edge shoved a lot more out of wack. So I have no doubt that some sort of anti-fungal-bacterial protocol would be good for me. I do best on a fairly low carb diet.

I took lots of notes, too, and through my haze I came up with something of an understanding....that improving methylation increases the need for ATP, and increasing ATP increases the need for methylfolate.

I last took some Ado B12 on New Years Eve day--and I'd decided that I definitely needed it with Folate. I took 600 mcg of Folate with roughly 1/8 Dibencozide--about 1250 mcg of Ado B12--and for about an hour as I sucked on it, I felt as if I'd been shot into space--jittery and completely wired. Interestingly having some food helped bring me down, which may say something about blood sugar. Later in the day I took only another 200 mcg of Folate, which revved me up again, but less strongly and toward evening I ended up feeling spent, having IBS and I couldn't go to sleep without valium.

What I ended up deciding is that I wanted to get lower doses of the Ado B12. To that end, I've done a bit of research and am about to purchase some by Seeking Health, which has a 3,000 mg dose. I ought to be able to titrate down to 300-400mcg, which might help me tolerate it better.

I do find that somehow, the day after I've taken some I seem somewhat better/calmer/less pain. I certainly haven't reached the point where I'd even try to do a sit up! My muscles are much too weak for that. But your story gives me heart. I know the Ado B12 is the one to help rebuild the muscles, and resolve those lumps of spasmed muscle within a muscle group. I've also got fascia issues, tangled tissue in my hands, called Dupytrens contracture and sore feet.

So do you take NO MeB-12 at this point? The Ado B-12 daily?

I haven't gone near the Carnitine, myself. One thing at a time. I've only been working on Freddd's protocol since last August and I've had an enormous lowering of pain levels. I need to remind myself of that when I get impatient. And I have occasional nights of pretty spectacular sleep--for me! Last night I got a total of about 7 1/2 hours. Only about 1/2 mg Melatonin. Though I was up and down to pee, I was up for only an hour and a half extended period from about 4:30, then slept again and had wonderful dreams--missing from my repertoire for more than a decade--until about 9:30.

There are still many nights after experimentation when I revert to 4-5 hours and feel like a dog the next day. It's a lucky thing we're willing to put up with the down side of things in the hopes of these rare normal-seeming days. I guess it's the only way we're going to get there consistently. At least that's the hope.

And I'm full of it for this New Year.

Thanks for your very helpful thoughts.

 

[ahmo]

@skyebean Congratulations!

Wonderful that parasite cleanse reduced irritability.

 

[Kathevans]

I keep thinking about a cleanse, but I can't figure out what I might have. I think I've lost faith in Western medicine, but for the moment I don't have a good alternative doctor to guide me--the last one's clinic went out of business. So much for American health care.

I have an endoscopy/colonoscopy scheduled for the end of the month, but I'm afraid they won't have anything useful to add to the mix. Five years ago I was fine: "No significant celiac sprue; no h pylori".

 

[skyebean]

o do you take NO MeB-12 at this point? The Ado B-12 daily?

Hi Kathevans - I do take some in my b complex, but I don't think it's worth much taking it like that. I do occasional nibbles on my Jarrow 5000mcg sublinguals, because I don't want to get a deficiency....I'm really cautious about how much I take in this phase, though, because I've become sensitive to it in a way I hadn't been before...