• Welcome to Phoenix Rising!

    Created in 2008, Phoenix Rising is the largest and oldest forum dedicated to furthering the understanding of and finding treatments for complex chronic illnesses such as chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS), fibromyalgia (FM), long COVID, postural orthostatic tachycardia syndrome (POTS), mast cell activation syndrome (MCAS), and allied diseases.

    To become a member, simply click the Register button at the top right.

R-lipoic acid or n-acetyl cysteine: which of these just messed me up?

Messages
46
Hi

Hoping someone might have an insight into what might be going on for me at the moment.
I was with my doctor on Monday and he prescribed 2 new supplements apparently to help with the die off/herx I know I will experience when I take a herbal antimicrobial and to help with brain inflammation which he attributes to a leaky blood brain barrier.


The 2 supplements in question are "c-rla" and "cytoquel" both by researched nutritionals.

https://www.researchednutritionals.com/store/item.cfm?code=CRN141

https://www.researchednutritionals.com/store/item.cfm?code=CRN145

Since I started taking these I have been hit with the most severe fatigue and lethargy.
Now I see that r lipoic acid moves Mercury around the body. My doctor has recommended that I stop for a few days and restart at 1/4 the recommended dose.

As for the other product cytoquel which contains NAC. Can somebody tell me is this implicated in moving Mercury around also or is it used for building glutathione?

I cannot tolerate another week like I've just had and while I know I will need to be extremely careful with the lipoic acid I am unsure about the NAC.

Any educated insights would be welcome.

Thanks a million
Paul
 

Sushi

Moderation Resource Albuquerque
Messages
19,935
Location
Albuquerque
Now I see that r lipoic acid moves Mercury around the body.
Have you read the dosing instructions from Dr. Shoemaker about taking alpha or r lipoic acid every few hours so that it doesn't "drop" the mercury it picks up? Who can say that he is right but he does present this caution when taking it.
 
Messages
46
Have you read the dosing instructions from Dr. Shoemaker about taking alpha or r lipoic acid every few hours so that it doesn't "drop" the mercury it picks up? Who can say that he is right but he does present this caution when taking it.
Thanks for your reply. I've spent all day reading about the cutler protocol and then the Dr Christopher Shade protocol and yes I see that cutler recommends ALA be used every 3 hours. That's fine if your intention is to chelate Mercury but in my case I didn't realise that's what this nutrient does so I wasn't prepared at all.

I know ultimately I will need to get the Mercury out in order to solve the gut issues but it seems a certain level of gut rebalancing is required first in order to prepare that exit route for Mercury excretion.

A difficult chicken and egg situation...
 
Messages
46
Don't suppose you know about NAC though Sushi?
I can't seem to find solid info on whether its role is to build glutathione or whether it actually mobilises Mercury or crosses the BBB. If it does I need to be very careful with that too.
Lots of conflicting info out there. Baffling too how the so called experts (cutler/shade) can be night and day in their opinions on the same thing...
 

Lynn_M

Senior Member
Messages
208
Location
Western Nebraska
Paul K,

In your reading of Cutler, you should also have picked up that he doesn't recommend anyone take the recommended chelating agents (DMPS, DMSA, ALA) unless they've had all amalgam fillings removed. And he further recommends that ALA not be taken until a person has been taking DMPS or DMSA for some months according to his half-life protocol timing, in order to reduce the body burden of mercury and minimize any chance of moving mercury into the brain. The timing on ALA is every 3 hours, possibly pushing it to 4 hours during sleeptime.

The first mention of NAC in Cutler's Amalgam Illness is in regards to treatment of mercury poisoning.
"If hydrocarbons, especially aromatic ones, are a problem, the patient may have slow phase 2 glutathione conjugation. This can best be corrected with NAC. Reasonable doses to clear such problems are 1-4 grams per day. Some people also require additional glutamine and glycine to use NAC on for prolonged period. Take 4 parts NAC to 2 parts glutamine to 1 part glycine for this purpose. Patients who have impaired metabolic conversion of cysteine to taurine and sulfate may respond negatively to NAC. NAC is also much more effective in elevating liver glutathione than either cysteine or glutathione." p. 102 Amalgam Illness

"Those who have low glutathione or glutathione conjugation on the liver detox test are likely to benefit from NAC 600-4,000 mg/day." p. 111

It appears that you should be okay taking NAC. I strongly suspect it is the ALA that has caused your reaction. If you still have amalgams, and if you're not taking it every 3 hours, according to the half-life, and if you haven't done any other chelating first, I think you may still have problems even if dropping to a 1/4 of the dose. The uncertain benefit for the purposes your doctor specified seem to be greatly outweighed, IMO, by the known abilities of ALA to mobilize and merely move mercury around if not used correctly.
 

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
Don't suppose you know about NAC though Sushi?
I can't seem to find solid info on whether its role is to build glutathione or whether it actually mobilises Mercury or crosses the BBB. If it does I need to be very careful with that too.
Lots of conflicting info out there. Baffling too how the so called experts (cutler/shade) can be night and day in their opinions on the same thing...

In some people, at least those with adult onset CblC, NAC and/or glutathione and by dose perhaps lots of people, it causes catastrophic B12 deficiency and is popularly called NAC detox or glutathione detox. These cause instant methyltrap (2 hours) and can cause demyelination of nerves in about two weeks or so dependent upon probably other unknown factors. However, in an N=10 trial about 7 years ago that I participated in caused neurological damage in 10 of 10 people in 6 weeks and we canceled the rest of the trial. I had the worst damage at the beginning and I had the most increased damage and the least re-healing, but that may be what pushed the copper deficiency over the edge.
 

Sushi

Moderation Resource Albuquerque
Messages
19,935
Location
Albuquerque
Don't suppose you know about NAC though Sushi?
I missed this post--if you want to get someone's attention, tag them, like this: @paul_k . I don't know much about NAC but seem to do well with it myself. I take 600 mg per day without any problem, but each of us react and respond differently to supplements and medications.
 
Messages
46
Paul K,

In your reading of Cutler, you should also have picked up that he doesn't recommend anyone take the recommended chelating agents (DMPS, DMSA, ALA) unless they've had all amalgam fillings removed. And he further recommends that ALA not be taken until a person has been taking DMPS or DMSA for some months according to his half-life protocol timing, in order to reduce the body burden of mercury and minimize any chance of moving mercury into the brain. The timing on ALA is every 3 hours, possibly pushing it to 4 hours during sleeptime.

The first mention of NAC in Cutler's Amalgam Illness is in regards to treatment of mercury poisoning.
"If hydrocarbons, especially aromatic ones, are a problem, the patient may have slow phase 2 glutathione conjugation. This can best be corrected with NAC. Reasonable doses to clear such problems are 1-4 grams per day. Some people also require additional glutamine and glycine to use NAC on for prolonged period. Take 4 parts NAC to 2 parts glutamine to 1 part glycine for this purpose. Patients who have impaired metabolic conversion of cysteine to taurine and sulfate may respond negatively to NAC. NAC is also much more effective in elevating liver glutathione than either cysteine or glutathione." p. 102 Amalgam Illness

"Those who have low glutathione or glutathione conjugation on the liver detox test are likely to benefit from NAC 600-4,000 mg/day." p. 111

It appears that you should be okay taking NAC. I strongly suspect it is the ALA that has caused your reaction. If you still have amalgams, and if you're not taking it every 3 hours, according to the half-life, and if you haven't done any other chelating first, I think you may still have problems even if dropping to a 1/4 of the dose. The uncertain benefit for the purposes your doctor specified seem to be greatly outweighed, IMO, by the known abilities of ALA to mobilize and merely move mercury around if not used correctly.
Thanks for this Lynn.
I had my amalgams removed (all 8 of them) about 5 years ago and the only detox I did was about 6 months of chlorella and vitamin c. At the time I actually felt such an improvement from these actions compared to how I had felt pre removal that I didn't decide to go into any deeper chelation. I have taken chlorella periodically on and off ever since and I find it useful.
The R-ALA would certainty appear to be a problem for me. The initial dose was 70mg and the fact that it was the R form and was liposomal in delivery would likely equate to a much larger dose than the regular form taken orally via a capsule.
I will cautiously try 1/8 of the dose after a break and see how I do.
DMSA feels like a very big step and one I'm not comfortable taking just now.
I would need to educate myself a lot more and get my doctor to buy in.
Based on how I've felt the past few days I'm not sure my body could handle it right now.
Thanks again
 
Messages
46
In some people, at least those with adult onset CblC, NAC and/or glutathione and by dose perhaps lots of people, it causes catastrophic B12 deficiency and is popularly called NAC detox or glutathione detox. These cause instant methyltrap (2 hours) and can cause demyelination of nerves in about two weeks or so dependent upon probably other unknown factors. However, in an N=10 trial about 7 years ago that I participated in caused neurological damage in 10 of 10 people in 6 weeks and we canceled the rest of the trial. I had the worst damage at the beginning and I had the most increased damage and the least re-healing, but that may be what pushed the copper deficiency over the edge.
Thanks for this Freddd.
I have been supplementing liposomal glutathione on and off for a few months and it doesn't appear to be causing me any difficulties that I can detect so far.
It seems extreme caution is needed with all supplements
 
Messages
46
I missed this post--if you want to get someone's attention, tag them, like this: @paul_k . I don't know much about NAC but seem to do well with it myself. I take 600 mg per day without any problem, but each of us react and respond differently to supplements and medications.
Thanks for sharing Sushi
 

Lynn_M

Senior Member
Messages
208
Location
Western Nebraska
Paul_K,
Glad you got rid of your amalgams years ago. Reading your comment, I wasn't positive if that was the case, but wanted to caution in case it wasn't. You probably also know that Cutler doesn't like chlorella because it doesn't have two thiol molecules to grab firmly on to the mercury and escort it out of the body.

I've read Dr. Chris Shade's website and watched several videos of his presentations at conferences. From what I know now, I'd be inclined to seriously look into his protocol for detoxing, rather than Cutler's, if I needed to detox mercury more. Shade doesn't think DMSA is all that great, and it sounds like he has better tools. I especially like the idea of being able to use his test to find out one's mercury level without needing to use a chelator. That being said, I think Cutler and his cautions are still worth paying attention to. I wish I knew what Cutler thinks of Shade's protocol.

There's another thread going on called Glutathione: Is More Better? LivingwithFibro referenced this article there: http://180degreehealth.com/glutathione/. I think the article and especially the comments are well worth reading. In the comments, the biochemist author Dr. Brind explains why some people (such as Freddd) have trouble with supplemental glutathione, and also with methylation agents. He says oftentimes glycine is more beneficial than glutathione. We often don't know the damage we are doing when we supplement.
 
Messages
46
Paul_K,
Glad you got rid of your amalgams years ago. Reading your comment, I wasn't positive if that was the case, but wanted to caution in case it wasn't. You probably also know that Cutler doesn't like chlorella because it doesn't have two thiol molecules to grab firmly on

I've read Dr. Chris Shade's website and watched several videos of his presentations at conferences. From what I know now, I'd be inclined to seriously look into his protocol for detoxing, rather than Cutler's, if I needed to detox mercury more. Shade doesn't think DMSA is all that great, and it sounds like he has better tools. I especially like the idea of being able to use his test to find out one's mercury level without needing to use a chelator. That being said, I think Cutler and his cautions are still worth paying attention to. I wish I knew what Cutler thinks of Shade's protocol.

There's another thread going on called Glutathione: Is More Better? LivingwithFibro referenced this article there: http://180degreehealth.com/glutathione/. I think the article and especially the comments are well worth reading. In the comments, the biochemist author Dr. Brind explains why some people (such as Freddd) have trouble with supplemental glutathione, and also with methylation agents. He says oftentimes glycine is more beneficial than glutathione. We often don't know the damage we are doing when we supplement.
 
Messages
46
Sorry for delayed response Lynn. It's been a rough few days. A sauna sweating session followed by a coffee enema helped me out of the quicksand today. Hell, maybe they're bad for me too but desperate times call for desperate measures and we all gotta get through the day somehow eh.
I think I have probably been doing myself no favours by taking lots of chlorella the past few days on the simplified understanding that it is only binding and not mobilising/stirring up so will be giving that a break for a while now too at least until things settle down.

Very interesting article and discussion about glutathione. Thanks for bringing it to my attention. I for one probably don't get enough dietary glycine due to histamine intolerance where I need to avoid slow cooking.

I like Chris shade's thinking too although his products are very expensive. Interesting that he says chlorella is the "next best" intestinal binding agent after his own product IMD which happens to cost around $150 for 6 grams!
I also think his insights about "pre tox" and preparing the lymphatic system for detox with herbal/homeopathic remedies are very responsible and this makes a lot of sense.
Makes me think I might have a chat with my acupuncturist/herbalist to see if they can add anything.

Paul
 

Dufresne

almost there...
Messages
1,039
Location
Laurentians, Quebec
@paul_k

In my experience binding with chlorella leads to a controlled release of toxins. It can be a bit rough for a few days but then the body finds its stride.

DMSA, as I understand it, is very safe.

Chlorella is good to start with; then I'd go with oral DMSA; and then the ALA last.

I sometimes wake up a couple hours after going to sleep with a horrible feeling throughout my nervous system. I get this after eating certain kinds of fish and also sometimes when I'm killing borrelia. ALA is the only way I can get back to sleep again and it takes about 25 minutes for it to work. I haven't used ALA every 3.5 hours in years. And even then I'm not sure it made any difference. Horowitz recommends taking ALA or other chelators at nighttime with some chlorella in the gut, and says none of his patients have ever had any problems from doing this.

NAC can also mobilize mercury. Dr Cheney stated in an old video that two of his patients ended up suicidal from taking fairly large doses of NAC, and he speculates it was due to mercury mobilization. And I believe Andy Cutler recommends against NAC.