"Humans are frugivores"

[LivingwithFibro]

This chart goes around on the internet and is used by Fruitarians/Raw Vegans to "prove" that humans are frugivores.... it says "Alkaline urine" for humans, really?... I thought we could discuss this together.

I'm sorry if this is not in the right section.

 

[Effi]

@LivingwithFibro It's weird how they compare animals living in the wild with humans who obviously don't live in the wild anymore (and who have hands AND cutlery to cut their food). It would be interesting to see human teeth from the time we were still living in caves, and then make a comparison. Btw, there was a thread on a new discovery about paleolithic people eating grains (here). I was wondering how the fruitarians/rawtarians reacted to that... What's your opinion on this?

 

[msf]

We have cooking. Also, it´s a bit silly because chimpanzees, who are our closest relatives, aren´t complete vegetarians. I think there are good ethical arguments for vegetarianism, but the design/nature ones do not convince me.

 

[msf]

There may also be good health arguments...I watched a BBC doc recently that extolled the benefits of low-protein diets.

 

[msf]

Just thought I´d point out that the reason those diets work is because it decreases IGF1, which already seems to be low in FM patients, so it might not be a good idea for us.

 

[Scarecrow]

This chart often goes on the internet and is used by Fruitarians/Raw Vegans to "prove" that humans are frugivores.... it says "Alkaline urine" for humans, really?

Exactly. The pH of human urine depends on diet so that's a bit of a circular argument.

The chart is very selective and exists solely to 'prove' the point it sets out to.

The typical mammalian frugivore is a primate - I can't think of any other mammalian Order that mainly eats fruit. Humans are primates, so a lot of our anatomy and physiology is going to be very similar to a typical frugivore, whatever our 'natural' diet is.

There are many examples of animals that are exceptions to the general rule of their Order. Here's an extreme case. Giant pandas are in the Order Carnivora. They are bears and, with the exception of polar bears, all the other members of that family are omnivores. Pandas have a digestive tract that is very typical of other bears. Their diet in the wild is 99% bamboo and has been for a few million years. They eat more or less constantly and defecate frequently because their digestion is so inefficient. OK, so I didn't choose an evolutionary success story to make my point. It may have been better for them if they hadn't gone down the evolutionary path they did .......................but then there'd be no such thing as a giant panda. A panda is without question a herbivore, not an omnivore.

We're the evolutionary opposite of the giant panda. Our early primate ancestors were almost certainly more specialised in their diet but we are the ultimate generalists who are pretty adept at specialising when we need or choose to.

What is the typical hunter gatherer diet of humans? There isn't one.

 

[Vic]

And... meat tastes really good.

 

[IreneF]

Exactly. The pH of human urine depends on diet so that's a bit of a circular argument.

The chart is very selective and exists solely to 'prove' the point it sets out to.

The typical mammalian frugivore is a primate - I can't think of any other mammalian Order that mainly eats fruit. Humans are primates, so a lot of our anatomy and physiology is going to be very similar to a typical frugivore, whatever our 'natural' diet is.

There are many examples of animals that are exceptions to the general rule of their Order. Here's an extreme case. Giant pandas are in the Order Carnivora. They are bears and, with the exception of polar bears, all the other members of that family are omnivores. Pandas have a digestive tract that is very typical of other bears. Their diet in the wild is 99% bamboo and has been for a few million years. They eat more or less constantly and defecate frequently because their digestion is so inefficient. OK, so I didn't choose an evolutionary success story to make my point. It may have been better for them if they hadn't gone down the evolutionary path they did .......................but then there'd be no such thing as a giant panda. A panda is without question a herbivore, not an omnivore.

We're the evolutionary opposite of the giant panda. Our early primate ancestors were almost certainly more specialised in their diet but we are the ultimate generalists who are pretty adept at specialising when we need or choose to.

What is the typical hunter gatherer diet of humans? There isn't one.

 

[IreneF]

The suborder Megachiroptera includes fruit bats.

The grasshopper mouse is carnivorous, unlike other rodents. Another zoological exception to the rule.

Two impotant things about humans and diet are 1) that we cook our food, so we don't need the kind of massive dentition of true carnivores or herbivores. If you can find a series of fossil skulls going back in time, you can see the changes that have taken place. Cooking goes way, way back--possibly before the evolution of the genus Homo.

And 2) humans live--and have lived, for millennia--in nearly every environment on earth. The diet of an Arctic hunter is far, far different from that of a jungle dweller.

 

[WoolPippi]

humans who obviously don't live in the wild anymore (and who have hands AND cutlery to cut their food). It would be interesting to see human teeth from the time we were still living in caves, and then make a comparison.

I think our jaws got smaller since then but I'm not sure. Nowadays less people have wishdom teeth?

In the west we only started to cut meat to bitesize around the 14th century. Before that teeth were much more worn down during life. When they found the sceleton from Richard III it showed that again.

 

[Valentijn]

Looks like a bunch of self-serving propaganda with no basis in reality. They're trying to use pseudoscience to sound authoritative, and failing rather miserably.

• Humans need vitamin B12, but we do not manufacture our own B12, nor do we get it from fruits, nuts, or vegetables. We get it from eating meat.
• Other primates eat more than is listed for them. They are widely known to eat insects, for example.
• A fruit-based diet would have us squatting in the jungle most of the day

I expect many or most of their claims regarding physiological differences would also be incorrect or exaggerated, if someone bothered to look them up.

 

[Scarecrow]

Pigs (and pessaries) are hooved omnivores.

Pig saliva does contain ptyalin and the combined large and small intestine is about 10 times body length. Perhaps they should also consider a fruit diet?

I suspect that the most of the 'facts' in the omnivore column relate to omnivorous Carnivora.

 

[Valentijn]

I was browsing bbc.com a moment ago and came across this surprisingly topical article:
http://www.bbc.com/earth/story/20150926-veggie-orangutans-turn-carnivore

So it sounds like they're pretty happy to eat some meat if they find it

 

[LivingwithFibro]

Looks like a bunch of self-serving propaganda with no basis in reality. They're trying to use pseudoscience to sound authoritative, and failing rather miserably.

• Humans need vitamin B12, but we do not manufacture our own B12, nor do we get it from fruits, nuts, or vegetables. We get it from eating meat.
• Other primates eat more than is listed for them. They are widely known to eat insects, for example.
• A fruit-based diet would have us squatting in the jungle most of the day

I expect many or most of their claims regarding physiological differences would also be incorrect or exaggerated, if someone bothered to look them up.

I agree!

Regarding the b12 bit, isn't b12 produced by gut bacteria? Sorry to sound stupid.

I love meat and in particular organ meats, I can tolerate them quite well. Liver for example is such a great multi-vitamin

 

[Valentijn]

Regarding the b12 bit, isn't b12 produced by gut bacteria?

Maybe, sometimes, but not in sufficient quantities.

 

[LivingwithFibro]

Here we go again...

A friend posted this

 

[msf]

We are not and have never been cows either.

 

[msf]

Or pangolins, jellyfish, or gibbons, for that matter. We have, however, been bacteria (or archea), fish, amphibians, and reptiles, if that helps to clear anything up.

 

[Effi]

what if we start eating like a lion? will we become a lion? will our digestive tract become shorter? I'm so confused!

 

[LivingwithFibro]

I'd love for someone to debunk this scientifically...