Methylation Panel Result - What in Yasko’s All-In-One made me feel good?

[Marc_NL]

I have read some comments and advise from Rich in the past after the Methylation pathway results, hopefully there are still people here that can understand this and comment:

Glutathione (reduced) 3.0 ref. range: 3.8 – 5.5
Glutathione (oxidized) 0.54 ref. range: 0.16 – 0.50
S-Adenosylmethionine (RBC) 219 ref. range: 221 – 256
S-Adenosylhomocysteine (RBC) 54.0 ref. range: 38.0 – 49.0
Adenosine 24.6 ref. range: 16.8 – 21.4
5-CH3-THF 8.3 ref. range: 8.4 – 72.6
10-Formyl-THF 6.4 ref. range: 1.5 – 8.2
5-Formyl-THF 1.20 ref. range: 1.20 – 11.70
THF 0.49 ref. range: 0.60 – 6.80
Folic Acid 10.6 ref. range: 8.9 – 24.6
Folinic Acid (WB) 7.0 ref. range: 9.0 – 35.5
Folic Acid, active (RBC) 321 ref. range: 400 – 1500

Besides that I took two extra tests:
Homocysteine 7.0 ref. range: 4.5 – 12.4
Methylmalonic Acid (MMA) urine 3.1 ref. range: 0.0 – 2.8 mg/24h (1850 ml)

Most of the values out of range as it "should" be.
Rich’s explanation is here:
http://phoenixrising.me/treating-cf...esults-of-the-methylation-pathways-panel-2011


After doing the test I started with a variation of Rich’s “simple” protocol
- First Yasko’s All-in-One Multivitamin - http://www.holisticheal.com/all-in-one-multi-vitamin-mineral-120-capsules.html
Starting with one capsule and increasing to four capsules (morning 2, afternoon 2)
After four days I started feeling better (didn’t really expect that), I was taking 3 capsules at that time.
I increased to four capsules and also started with:
- NT Factor EnergyLipids Powder (0.8g, oncea day)
http://www.iherb.com/Nutricology-NT-Factor-EnergyLipids-Powder-150-grams/45698
I was still feeling good for about three weeks (clear mind and more energy) so I didn’t add in other supplements.

When it stopped working for me I started adding other thing with some days in between:
- 2000 mcg (2 tablets) Enzymatic Therapy, B12 Infusion, Energy, 30 Chewable Tablets:
http://www.iherb.com/Enzymatic-Therapy-B12-Infusion-Energy-30-Chewable-Tablets/2119

- Source Naturals MegaFolinic 800mcg (1/4 tablet per day) http://www.iherb.com/Source-Naturals-MegaFolinic-800-mcg-120-Tablets/7735#

- Solgar Metafolin 400mcg (1/2 tablet per day) - http://www.iherb.com/Solgar-Folate-As-Metafolin-400-mcg-100-Tablets/14274#

- Later I changed the B12 to 1000 mcg (1 tablet) Enzymatic Therapy, B12 Infusion, Energy and 1000 mcg (1/10 tablet) of Source Naturals, Dibencozide Coenzymated B-12, 60 Tablets
http://www.iherb.com/Source-Naturals-Dibencozide-Coenzymated-B-12-60-Tablets/2454

Besides this I take
- 2 tablets Now Foods, Potassium Gluconate, 99 mg, 250 Tablets
http://www.iherb.com/Now-Foods-Potassium-Gluconate-99-mg-250-Tablets/764
- some omega fish oil

Some dissapointment that what I felt during the first three weeks on the All In One alone did not come back.
I intend to continue this protocol for two months and give it a chance and try some variations after that period.

1. So my most important question is of course: what was it in the All in One that made an almost immediate improvement why did it stop working and how can I repeat that?
2. I guess the SAMe is a suspect, so would taking some extra SAMe be a good idea, I have also read that if the methylation cycle starts cycling again values like SAMe will automatically come in range and I guess that if your body can start producing it by itself it’s better.
3. I read that a high level of Methylmalonic Acid points to lack of aB12, would that indicate that I should take more of the aB12, I also understand that you should not take to much mB12 and mFolate in the beginning not to overdrive things (still according to Rich’s theory), does that also count for the aB12 or can you take as much of this as you can handle?
4. Should I try hydroxocobalamin instead of the active forms since that is in the All In One and I just needed more of that?
5. Any other suggestions based on the Methylation panel results?
6. Any other things in the All In One that might have worked in the beginning?

Here are the ingredients:
=========================================
VITAMIN A (AS PALMITATE) 1250 IU
VITAMIN C (AS ASCORBIC ACID) 60mg
VITAMIN D3 (AS CHOLECALICIFEROL) 100 IU
VITAMIN E (AS SUCCINATE) 22.5 IU
VITAMIN K1 (AS PHYTONADIONE) 9mcg
VITAMIN B2 (AS RIBOFLAVIN 5-PHOSPHATE) 3.1mg
VITAMIN B3 (AS NIACINAMIDE) 9.4mg
VITAMIN B6 (AS PYRIDOXINE HCI) 3.1mg
FOLATE (AS FOLIC AND FOLINIC ACID) 20.1mcg
FOLATE (AS QUATREFOLIC®[6S]-5-METHYLTETRAHYDROFOLIC ACID EQUIVALENT TO 6.1 MCG [6S] -5-MEHTYLTETRAHYDROFOLIC ACID, GLUCOSAMINE SALT) 3.4mcg
VITAMIN B12 (HYDROXOCOBALAMIN) 62.5mcg
BIOTIN 38mcg
VITAMIN B5 (AS D-CALCIUM PANTOTHENATE) 12.5mg
CALCIUM (AS CITRATE) 5mg
MAGNESIUM (AS CITRATE) 36.3mg
ZINC (AS METHIONATE) 3.75mg
SELENIUM (L-SELENOMETHIONINE) 25mcg
MANGANESE (AS CITRATE) 0.25mg
CHROMIUM (AS POLYNICOTINATE) 25mcg
MOLYBDENUM (AS CITRATE) 18.8mcg
POTASSIUM (AS CITRATE) 6.25mg

PROPRIETARY SUPPORT BLEND: 215mg
~BROCCOLI POWDER
~L-CARNITINE (as tartrate)
~DOCOSAHEXAENOIC ACID (as DHA™)
~TAURINE
~GARLIC EXTRACT (deodorized)
~N-ACETYL-L-CYSTEINE
~L-METHIONINE
~CITRIUS BIOFLAVONOIDS EXTRACT
~PHOSPHOSERINE (as Sharp PS®)
~MILK THISTLE SEED EXTRACT
~MIXED NUCLEOTIDE
~INOSITOL
~PINE BARK EXTRACT (Pinus maritimus)
~SAME (s-adenosylmethioine)
~STRONTIUM (as citrate)
~BORON (as citrate)
~BENFOTIAMINE
~CURCUMIN (Turmeric Rhizome Extract)
~VANADIUM (as citrate)
~PARA-AMINO BENZONIC ACID (PABA)
~INTRINSIC FACTOR (porcine)
~ASTRAGULUS MEMBRANUS AND PANAX NOTOGINSENG EXTRACTS (as AstraGin™)
~LITHIUM (as orotate)

 

[PeterPositive]

Hi,
I have done the same test too and I have seen other results ... boy the all look like photocopies of each other... I wonder is there anyone with a test result that doesn't show the same pattern?

They all look the same, slightly low glutathione and SAMe, moderately elevated SAH and Adenosine... even in Dr Lynch's videos, when he shows the labs of a few anonymous patients, they all look the same ... I am starting to wonder if this test has any relevance or not...

Also interesting that your SAH is reported as elevated but your homocysteine is perfectly fine!

I wonder who made these ranges, and on which basis...

By the way, I'd love to be able to answer your question but the Yasko's supplement has so much things in it... if it's helping keep taking it.

cheers

 

[Marc_NL]

You are right, I would be interested to see the results of a "normal" person

About the ranges, in Rich's Interpretation of the Methylation Pathways Panel (2011):
"According to Dr. Audhya (personal communication), the reference ranges shown on the lab reports for each of these metabolites were derived from measurements on at least 120 healthy male and female volunteer medical students from ages 20 to 40, non-smoking, and with no known chronic diseases. The reference ranges extend to plus and minus two standard deviations from the mean of these measurements."

The only relevance for me so far is that it confirms my suspicion that something is wrong.


Is it contradictory if SAH is elevated and homocysteine is fine?
In the interpretation:
"Adenosine is a product of the reaction that converts SAH to homocysteine."
My Adenosine is high and SAH is also high.


The point with the Yasko supplement is that it no longer works for me, of course I don't know what happens if I quit.

 

[Sherpa]

I don't know what's in Yasko's All-in-One but it's a very good formula. She tries to include 'everything' needed to support the methylation pathway so 'the tank isn't empty' - a shotgun approach. It worked very well for me too and helped me lift my methylation cycle block.

I suspect the low dose SAM-e is a potent ingredient for some people. Many undermethylators are low in SAM-e but cannot handle the standard 200 - 400mg tablet doses.

 

[Marc_NL]

@Sherpa
I have no experience with SAM-e, in the All In One it is included in:
PROPRIETARY SUPPORT BLEND: 215mg

Could it be that the SAM-e helped but was not sufficient anymore for me, than I could try separate SAM-e.

Any advise on which brand of SAM-e and which dose?

What are side effects if you say "Many undermethylators are low in SAM-e but cannot handle the standard 200 - 400mg tablet doses."

Is the All In One no longer working for you or don't you need it any longer?

 

[Sherpa]

@Marc_NL

First - do you have your genetic SNPs - 23andme test results? That might help us some.

Second - your homocysteine is perfect. this suggests that your methylation might not be so bad, despite what the Methylaton Pathyways test says.

third - your mind will "get used to" the effects of methylation supplements. The first few days are amazing, then the effect seems normal. That is my experience.

When your body has had little or no glutathione for a long time, and you take vitamins that allow it to be produced again, it feels very "wonderful" and "refreshing" ... like Ahhhhhhhhhhh The world is beautiful again.

Then you get used to it and it feels normal. Just like a normal person, it's nothing special anymore.

Tests on Rich's protocol have shown that Rich's protocol works for many people and it improves their methylation pathways over a several month period. Even if they don't "think" it's works, it can still be working.

For me personally, I keep the dose of methylating agents (b12, methylfolate) the same until I start feeling really "bad" - negative thoughts, dark moods, low energy. Then I increase methylfolate by 100mcg. I went from 100mcg of methylfolate to 1400mcg - very slowly - one step at a time - over a period of 8 or 9 months.


However - Not everyone needs high doses of B12, active B12 (methylcobalmin and adenosylcobalmin) , or high doses of folates!

Some people do just fine on hydroxycobalmin - which lets your body control the rate of B12 conversion and dosing.

I have bad genetic mutations that require lots of folate and B12 - you might not!


----



I don't need All-in-One any more.

but All-in-One helped me get started.

Some people, All-in-One is all they ever need.
--

SAM-E is a powerful methyl donor that is produced at a later stage in the methylation cycle. Some people get a lot of energy and mood boost from it. Other people tend to "overmethylate" and feel insomnia, anxiety, bodily tension.

It is one "strong" ingredient in all-in-one - but there are many ingredients in there that could afect you. Hard to say which one.

I am not convinced, with a homocysteine level of 7 (perfect), that you have a major methylation problem.

A whole blood histamine test -- https://pyroluriatesting.com/shop/shop/histamine/ - is pretty cheap and its said to be a relaible indicator of your methylation levels if you want to double check.

 

[caledonia]

L-methionine is an intermediate step between B12/folate and SAMe. So that would also create more methyl groups.

Are you taking the B12 sublingually? Otherwise it barely absorbs. In which case, you would be taking more folate than B12 and that can eventually cause a methyl trap.

Your methylation panel looks about like mine. Lots of out of range stuff. Lots of oxidized glutathione and barely any reduced glutathione. SAH higher than SAM, etc. My homocysteine is in the normal range.

My memory is a bit fuzzy here, but I believe it's CBS which can cause homocysteine to be normal even though major bad stuff might be going on.

I agree with @Sherpa that the supps are probably still working even if you can't "feel" them. I don't know why so many people say that. It seems to be a very common misconception around here. The test is to stop taking them and see if you revert back to the way you were before (not so good).

 

[Marc_NL]

A lot of interesting stuff, thanks both.

I did not have the SNPs / 23andme tested, is that more useful to get more specific about needed supplements?

If methylation is not so bad than what is going on and why am I low on reduced Glutathione and low SAM and other things?

I don't say it is impossible but I don't think I imagine that it's no longer working, I feel the difference the moment I open my eyes in the morning.

I will look into the histamine test.


@caledonia:
- do you suggest trying taking separate L-methionine?
- Yes I take both B12's sublingually.
- what do you mean by CBS?
- what is the other bad stuf if it's not methylation?
- do you have a methylation problem (since your homocysteine is also all right)?

 

[Marc_NL]

My memory is a bit fuzzy here, but I believe it's CBS which can cause homocysteine to be normal even though major bad stuff might be going on.

I found your "SNPs Interpretation Guide" so I guess that's what you meant.

 

[caledonia]

A lot of interesting stuff, thanks both.

I did not have the SNPs / 23andme tested, is that more useful to get more specific about needed supplements?

If methylation is not so bad than what is going on and why am I low on reduced Glutathione and low SAM and other things?

Rich's interpretation document can help you decide if there's a methylation issue, but I would say if you have low reduced glutathione and SAH is higher than SAM - yes there are issues.

I don't say it is impossible but I don't think I imagine that it's no longer working, I feel the difference the moment I open my eyes in the morning.

I suppose you can try increasing, but I would wait until you're through the honeymoon period first.

@caledonia:
- do you suggest trying taking separate L-methionine?

Some people do ok with this, and some don't. It's supposed to be expensive.

- what do you mean by CBS?

There is a SNP called CBS at the bottom of the methylation cycle that leads to glutathione production (the transsulfuration pathway). If CBS is expressed, it's an upregulation, draining metabolites away from the rest of the methylation cycle (right where homocysteine is made). So that can make homocysteine look lower than it might be otherwise.

- what is the other bad stuf if it's not methylation?

That's what I meant - bad things happening elsewhere in the methylation cycle or transsulfuration pathway.

- do you have a methylation problem (since your homocysteine is also all right)?

Yes

 

[Marc_NL]

Nice puzzle this is, for every answer 3 more questions arise

Rich's interpretation document can help you decide if there's a methylation issue, but I would say if you have low reduced glutathione and SAH is higher than SAM - yes there are issues.

I read the document, the problem is that this document points out where the problems may be but not how to adjust the protocol in order to solve the problems.
My remark was more to Sherpa in response to:

I am not convinced, with a homocysteine level of 7 (perfect), that you have a major methylation problem.

I suppose you can try increasing, but I would wait until you're through the honeymoon period first.

I just wouldn't know what to increase but I will indeed not change anything for the next two months.
After that I might skip all the other supplements and go back to just the All In One and maybe take a double dose (8 capsules per day). It's quite expensive stuff but just as an experiment.

Some people do ok with this, and some don't. It's supposed to be expensive.

Than I'll start trying some other supplements first like SAM-e or Glutathione

There is a SNP called CBS at the bottom of the methylation cycle that leads to glutathione production (the transsulfuration pathway). If CBS is expressed, it's an upregulation, draining metabolites away from the rest of the methylation cycle (right where homocysteine is made). So that can make homocysteine look lower than it might be otherwise.

So far I did not really look into SNP's but it seems like a good idea to do the 23andMe, maybe that leads to more specifics than the methylation panel.
Suppose it is the CBS (or other SNP's), are there ways to correct this?

 

[caledonia]

So far I did not really look into SNP's but it seems like a good idea to do the 23andMe, maybe that leads to more specifics than the methylation panel.
Suppose it is the CBS (or other SNP's), are there ways to correct this?

Yes, there is at least one CBS protocol if CBS becomes an issue.

In general, I found that while the methylation panel was the first test that showed how badly screwed up I am, like you're saying, it didn't help much in terms of treatment. The only thing it helped was to clue me in that I might have a CBS problem (which I did end up having once I started methyl supps).

I've found a combination of the Nutreval test (interpreted with the Nutreval Interpretation Guide, see my signature link) and the methylation and detox SNPs (pulled from your 23andme raw data by the Genetic Genie app) to be the most useful.

The Nutreval is a comprehensive functional test, measuring vitamin and mineral levels, Krebs cycle function, gut dysbiosis, etc. So basically, it measures what's actually going on in your body, vs. the SNPs which are just potentials.

 

[Marc_NL]

Thanks again, so much useful information in you signature !

So the Nutreval is one more test I can take besides the histamine test and 23andme, but $832, wow.
Does the Nutreval also cover all the items in the methylation panel?

I did the methylation panel first before starting to take supplements because I thought that is a test that will be influenced by these supplements, the 23andme will not be affected, is that right?
And what about the other two tests (Nutreval and histamine), are they affected?

I think I will do the 23andme first, also I don't need a doctor for that.

So your CBS problem only came apparent after starting the Methyl subs? Is that a catalyst?
How can you check if the CBS issue is fixed because if you do the genetics test I suppose it will still show up?

 

[Sherpa]

A cheaper alternative to Nutraeval is the OAT -- organic acids test -- by Great Plains Labs. $299. Not exactly the same as Nutraeval... But offers a broad range of diagnostics as to what might be wrong with your system, not just methylation. They offer a free 30 minute consultation for your results

 

[Marc_NL]

@Sherpa

Are the Nutreval and OAT both blood tests?

I will have to check if these can also be ordered from Europe or see if there are comparable tests from the European Lab where I did the Methylation panel:
http://www.europeanlaboratory.nl

Is it a problem to do the OAT later while already taking supplements?

 

[Valentijn]

If CBS is expressed, it's an upregulation, draining metabolites away from the rest of the methylation cycle (right where homocysteine is made).

Except there's never been any indication that this ever causes any problems at all. The research into the one CBS SNP which has a mild impact (C699T), has been shown to be mildly beneficial in reducing risk of disease.

 

[Valentijn]

How can you check if the CBS issue is fixed because if you do the genetics test I suppose it will still show up?

There is no CBS issue. It's a myth started by Yasko, and repeated by others who cannot be bothered to read the relevant research.

 

[Marc_NL]

There is no CBS issue. It's a myth started by Yasko, and repeated by others who cannot be bothered to read the relevant research.

Thanks, I see that you are not a big fan of Yasko.

What would be your approach:
- do the 23andme?
- any idea about anything in the All In One multi that I could try as a separate supplement
- what else?

 

[Sherpa]

@Marc_NL OAT is a simple urine test. I personally went off all supplements for 24 hours, before urinating, to see what I was getting from typical everyday diet alone. My results showed very low glutathione, absolutely zero B6, low B2 and carnitine, high oxalates.

It's said you can take it a 2nd time on your usual supplements to gauge how well they work.


23andMe was most valuble test I did.

Others..like plasma zinc and copper, OAT, magnesium RBC, pyrrole, hair minerals... Were helpful but less important.

I have CBS genetic mutations but didn't worry about it, had no major issues. It wasn't important for me.

 

[Valentijn]

What would be your approach:
- do the 23andme?
- any idea about anything in the All In One multi that I could try as a separate supplement
- what else?

I think 23andMe is worth doing if you're able to put the work into checking into the actual impact of the SNPs. I don't think it's worthwhile if someone is going to believe every random claim being made. There are also many tools which can be used to filter potentially interesting results.

For a multivitamin, the usual concern in regards to methylation is to get the active forms of the B vitamins, especially methylfolate, and something other than cyanoB12. Ironically, the All in One from Yasko primarily uses folic acid instead of methylfolate. So any quality multi should be fine, and I wouldn't worry about all the extra proprietary mixes and such being added in.

And I'd keep it simple. Then it's easier to see what is working and what isn't. HydroxoB12 helps me, but methylB12 makes me feel over-stimulated after a few days. And neither folate nor folic acid seem to make any difference for me. So I avoid methylB12, and I don't worry about getting folate. If something isn't helping, stop buying it. If something is causing problems, stop taking it. Don't get sucked into complicated regimes.