Methylation causing flushed face

[beachy]

Can anyone suggest what might be causing my daughter to have a very flushed complexion, which becomes very red in the sun despite the use of sun block (she isn’t taking any niacin). She has been on the methylation protocol for about 5 months now, and is making improvements although we keep having to increase the folate levels which improve things for a few weeks before a further block occurs and she needs to put up the levels again.

Currently she is back to feeling fatigued all the time, IBS is causing a problem and very spotty face, which I guess all point to needing more folate. But may not account for the red face?


She takes:-

1mg Enzymatic Therapy B12

2mg Dibencozide

Methyl folate 2.4mg

¼ B complex plus

l-carnitine fumarate – around 400mg

Potassium 3 doses a day



Any input would be much appreciated

 

[lauluce]

It might be vitamin b3, also called niacin, if it is included in the vitamin B complex she's taking. http://nutrition.about.com/od/calcium/f/What-Is-A-Niacin-Flush.htm

I took a high dose of niacin for a while and a little while after taking it, I experienced a flush and itch in my whole body but specially in the face. I hope this info is useful for you

 

[beachy]

Thanks for the info, I had ruled out Niacin as the culprit as the Pure encapsulations B complex contains Niacinamide which I read doesn't cause flushing.However, after doing further research it turns out that "in about 1 percent of the subjects in whom it will cause a very unpleasant flush, and for these people it can not be used".

It still doesn't quite make sense though as she took the B complex plus with no problem for around 4 months, and for quite a bit of that time she was taking a whole capsule not 1/4.

 

[ahmo]

@beachy, I'm wondering if an underlying pyroluria/HPU symptom is coming to the surface. I don't know that flushing as such is a symptom, but sun sensitivity certainly is. that's what made me pay close attention to the questionnaire I'm linking. I only became totally sensitive to any sun exposure after my collapse into ME/CFS. Once I added the supps, it disappeared, immediately and 'permanently'. Have a look. ahmo

http://www.hputest.nl/ewhat.htm

 

[beachy]

Thanks for the link. I hadn't heard of this condition before. She certainly has a lot of the symptoms in some of the categories. so I will try increasing her zinc and getting some P5P as a start. from what i read this condition isn't accepted by the mainstream medical world so Im guessing it would probably be a waste of time going to see her UK GP as they haven't been any use so far.

 

[ahmo]

Yes, well, I had a couple of pr members also tell me it doesn't exist. When I returned to my GP after achieving 'miraculous' results by self-diagnosis and supplementation, he then reviewed many of his cases, arranged for one of the practice MDs to get further education re this.

Dietrich Klinghardt MD has been focussing on this in his work w/ autism. He links pyroluria and lyme, says lyme is no longer just about tick transmission. I'm linking his protocol.

http://www.klinghardtacademy.com/images/stories/powerpoints/hpu 2009.pdf

 

[frchli]

@beachy, I was wondering if the zinc/P5P made any difference for your daughter's flushing as I have the same issues on the methylation protocol?

Also, doctors found that my porphobilinogen deaminase is significantly decreased in the blood and hence its enzymatic activity is largely inhibited. They further tested me for acute intermittent porphyria by urine testing but that was negative. The (non-alternative practitioner/hospital) lab result stated that porphobilinogen deaminase may be inhibited due to heavy metal intoxification but the doctor thought it would be silly to test that and that we should just be happy it is not acute intermittent porphyria... =/
Anyway, I read somewhere that decreased porphobilinogen deaminase always implies Pyroluria and was wondering, if you, @ahmo, could give me a hint/link to a source regarding how/whether to start the zinc/P5P even though I am just starting Freddd's protocol and if you think that is a good idea, when to take zinc/P5P and how much with all the other new stuff? I'm reading in your signature that you are successful regarding the Pyroluria protocol and doing Freddd's so I'd love some insight!

Thanks a lot!!

 

[ahmo]

@frchli Yes, I think it's a good idea to start yesterday

I used Dietrich Klinghardt's recommendations.

Klinghardt Pyroluria
http://www.klinghardtacademy.com/images/stories/powerpoints/hpu 2009.pdf

Klinghardt: Autism, Lyme, Pyroluria

http://youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=-z3kRDYcvhA

 

[frchli]

Thanks for your insight, @ahmo!

I read in another thread that you were saying that QUOTE="ahmo, post: 643644, member: 5434"]p5p 25mg from the B comp: I'd been taking extra p5p until beginning of this year, when it became clear tyhat it was adding to my ammonia/peroxynitrite burden (I stopped trying to differentiate these, tho here, it's probably ammonia)[/QUOTE].

I also have bad ammonia issues—especially when eating proteins (from my Clostridium Spp overgrowth in the intestinal flora I think). Hence, I'm a little hesitant with the B6 but I'll give it a shot. How did you notice it's adding to your ammonia issues?

Also, I wouldn't like to come off my methylation protocol for testing. So I was wondering if you/someone know whether a decreased enzymatic activity to 56% of the porphobilinogen deaminase is a definite indicator of pyroluria?

@ahmo, would you consider it to be problematic to just do the P5P, zinc, manganese part of the protocol while being on @Freddd's protocol simultaneously, which I have just started and feel increased energy (though annoyingly also increased immune response in the form of being clogged up/feeling like I have a big cold/LOTS of mucus that I haven't had in the past 3 yrs since I got ill-ill but had all the time before that since I was born...) from.

Thanks so much for your help/sharing your knowledge!!

 

[ahmo]

How did you notice it's adding to your ammonia issues?

I kept having symptoms, as I recorded in my blog Candida Purge. So I started checking w/ my body. When I thought to self-test p5p, I got a 'no'. I quit, and the symptoms decreased.

Also, I wouldn't like to come off my methylation protocol for testing. So I was wondering if you/someone know whether a decreased enzymatic activity to 56% of the porphobilinogen deaminase is a definite indicator of pyroluria?

Sorry, don't know, didn't do any tests, except for the online questionnaire.

@ahmo, would you consider it to be problematic to just do the P5P, zinc, manganese part of the protocol while being on @Freddd's protocol simultaneously,

That's really the guts of the protocol, also including, I think, se, molybd. I started pyroluria supps nearly a year before I started FP.

(though annoyingly also increased immune response in the form of being clogged up/feeling like I have a big cold/LOTS of mucus

This sounds like possibly increased histamine from increased methylation. It happens.

 

[frchli]

Thanks, @ahmo!

This sounds like possibly increased histamine from increased methylation

I thought the same, @ahmo! It makes sense as well as I have a diagnosed mastocytosis. Plus, when I took only the B Complex or only the MB12, I got REALLY bad mast cell reactions (as in ones that I should definitely be avoiding with my mastocytosis...) Though B Complex and MB12 in small doses together with quite a bit (~3200mcg) MFolate seem to be ok and I seem to be getting slightly more tolerant as well... and despite the allergic symptoms increasing, so is my energy level plus MCS is decreasing so I am going to stick to it for a while!

However, I have gained 5 kg of ... (water/edema? food just sitting in my tummy/intestine) within the past 2 weeks which I find slightly strange. I was underweight in the first place so I am not too worried but it doesn't feel nice/feels like a waterfilled balloon that it about to burst... hm! any insight? I guess histamine opens the vessels and lets water get into the tissue to cure the inflammation, hmmm!

Take care!

 

[ahmo]

However, I have gained 5 kg of ... (water/edema? food just sitting in my tummy/intestine) within the past 2 weeks which I find slightly strange.

Any facial edema? possible adrenals?

 

[frchli]

Yes, definitely also the face, @ahmo!! The difference is rather scary!
Also, I seem to need to pee a LOT (as in 2 litres [!!!] at once after I returned from the doctor where I went on the scales and noticed the sudden weight gain) and also at night.
My kidneys are absolutely fine according to blood values — should I be worried anyway? My face gets super puffy and my saliva starts floating excessively every now and then... for hours, sometimes!

I thought maybe it's low potassium as well? Could be so many things... it's slightly better today so it really changes!

How would I find out if it was the adrenals? And, more importantly, what would I do about it?

 

[ahmo]

@frchli I discovered that vegetable folate, which is folinic form, was blocking my Mfolate uptake. It took me awhile to get it, I'd gotten to a 30mg dose of Mfolate, which I'd been increasing to eliminate persistent folate deficiency symptoms (skin). I was experiencing increased fluid in my legs and face. When I stopped the green veg, my methylation took off. More particularly, the detox I'd been engaged with became jet propelled.

My way of dealing w/ adrenal stress is by coffee enemas. I've not found a better approach, at least one of the 2 Dr. Wilson adrenal experts endorses and uses them.

I'm not sure what role or symptoms potassium would play in this scenario. I've wound my way through all these protocols with the help of self-testing. I ask my body, eg. do I need K+? Are adrenals ok?...so I can't offer you anything in the way of suggested tests.

Some links. Some people object to the term adrenal fatigue. If that's the case, just read beyond, there's a lot of good info here. I haven't looked at these for a long time, don't know what all you'll find.

http://www.adrenalfatigue.org/autoimmune-disease

http://www.medhelp.org/posts/Adrenal-Insufficiency/Low-potassium-or-high-potassium/show/1082868

http://www.drlwilson.com/Articles/Adrenal 192.htm

http://www.womentowomen.com/adrenal-health-2/eating-to-support-your-adrenal-glands-2/

http://www.pointofreturn.com/adrenal_fatigue.html

http://www.drlwilson.com/Articles/Adrenal 192.htm

http://www.tuberose.com/Adrenal_Glands.html

 

[frchli]

"Edema causes swelling and puffiness in the face, feet, ankles, and abdomen. It also causes sudden changes in mental state, shortness of breath, and muscle ache. According to the Acu-Cell Nutrition, edema is also a symptom of potassium deficiency." from http://www.progressivehealth.com/potassium-fluid-retention.htm

I've had blood drawn the day I was super puffy so I'll let you, @ahmo, know the results when I get them (on Monday at the latest). I'm curious what my potassium level will be!

Good idea about the green vege! I didn't eat much of it but a courgette (zucchini) or a cucumber some days thinking that "a bit of vege can't do that much harm... =P" especially as my diet is quite restricted anyway. I'll leave it out and see if it makes a difference though! I'll keep you posted.

I have tried a coffee enema once and didn't feel well after it at all though I'm not sure whether that was due to the enema or the fact that I wasn't well beforehand either... I do normal (water) enemas regularly when I need them though. Sometimes they are really the last resort as I get really bad symptoms of minimal hepatic encephalopathy whenever I have bloating in my large intestine. It ALWAYS happens WHENEVER I eat proteins and ALWAYS goes away within half an hour or so of the respective gas/stool coming out (sorry for TMI!). Really annoying as I know that eating a protein deficient diet like mine is not healthy at all but I just cannot function when I do =/ Feeling a bit trapped there...

 

[ahmo]

Courgette is what I'd been eating, about 2/day. No more.

Sorry to hear about protein/liver. Beyond my problem-solving ability.