Hi Freddd,
I haven't yet tried the adensoylb12, though I have bought the brand you recommended. Didn't want to try it till things settle down. I was taking the Jarrow sublingual, and use Perque sublingual hydrox.
Other supps: no glutathione or precursors of any type, L-carnitine fumarate (can't tell any reaction one way or the other), FoloPro (metagenics--at this point can only tolerate about 100 mcg though I took as much as 800 mcg earlier--this is 5-MTHF), SAMe 200 mg--in foil bubble pack kept in fridge (my SAMe levels test normal now, were very low, I took 400 mg earlier, SAMe feels good for me), I take all the B vitamins individually in their bioactive forms as I want to avoid a B complex that has folic acid or cyanocobalamin.
I live in Hicksville and no one here would even know what a floatation tank was--I use the bathtub! 2-3 cups of Epsom Salts plus ginger), FIR is Far Infrared Sauna, OI is orthostatic intolerance. Like us all, I have some screwy genes but don't have the MTHFR polymorphisms. I do have Ehlers-Danlos which affects collagen formation. I don't seem to have a problem converting hydrox to bio-active forms.
As far as toxins, there will be the garden variety that we pick up from "normal American life," (but I haven't been eliminating them for years), I have traveled a great deal internationally and have had way too many vaccinations--nasty ones like yellow fever, cholera, and multiple small pox, as well as anti-malarials such as mefloquine. I did have multiple parasites, but have been treated very well for them and I think they are gone.
Then there will be a lot of DDT from childhood exposure (they sprayed that stuff everywhere!), gotta be mercury from amalgams (mine have all been removed but before they knew to take precautions--I did have about 20 EDTA IV chelations, but EDTA doesn't grab that much mercury). I also have several other heavy metals, high viral loads of Epstein Barr, medium levels of C Pheumonica, Herpes Simplex--maybe some others. Gut infections are pretty well cleaned up, dysbiosis is also much improved.
FIR is a big winner in my life! It gets me out of some bad reactions. My diet is pretty clean--only sins are rye crackers and a tiny bit of dairy in tea.
That is some of the picture. Hope it gives you an idea. Also, my situation isn't unique--others have the same sorts of problems controlling detox once methylation starts picking up and glutathione levels rise and start going after toxins.
Sushi
Hi Sushi,
I also have the DDT exposures and at least 4-5 smallpox vaccinations though no international travel and didn't pick up on those other things. I have a floatation tank. I bought it in the early 90s when I was totally miserable. For some years I got in the tank every night at bedtime and spent about 5 hours or so. It has 1.25 density epsom salt solution at about 93.75 degrees and so is temperature neutral. Even a fraction of a degree too warm and sweat fills the eye sockets so one has to be at temperature eqiuilibrium. It helped a lot with pain control and getting rested.
Here is the pattern I see. What it means is yet to be determined but may give some guidance for trying certain things, experimenting, in a different way. It's not an answer as such, just a pattern. As I've mentioned before the people with the most extreme reactions to methylb12 are the ones that have been on inactive cobalamins; cyanocobalamin AND hydroxycobalamin. Your reaction here is certainly one of the most extreme I've seen. Also, as I've mentioned elsewhere, there is an "order dependence" on what reactions occur and how when starting up these various supplements. My experience, personally and with hundreds of people, and those experiences related by Dr Neubrander and Dr Myhill in the course of their practices all match. The pattern of these situations are based on methylb12 without any hydroxyb12, and adding the methylators generally after methylb12 goes through it's intial startup reactions. The patterns seen is an immediate set of reactions that diminish fairly rapidly, often in the first month, but virtually always in the first 6 months, and rarely with the severity you are experiencing. Further most of your symptoms being experienced are methylb12 deficiency and/or adenosylb12 deficiency symptoms, some body and some central. Hydroxyb12 doesn't get at the central symptoms at all. Again, this is a pattern I've seen only in people taking hydroxycobalamin and cyanocobalamin. That they are getting worse the longer you go would appear to confirm that. The very large reaction you had to the Jarrow appears to confirm that. The things that you have occurring normally would have all healed in the first year on the protocol I've been working with.
The type of detox reactions, and the attribution to detox, appears to be limited to people on the type of protocol that you have been on. That could be because of the order of supplements, the combination of suppliments and/or the presence of hydroxycobalamin, or possibly by something fundamental in the makeup in some way of the persons choosing a specific protocol; perhaps because of what symptoms they have and so where they choose to get their information. Without a controled study there is no way to tell. The theoretical and hypothetical basis one is coming from appears to shape both the reactions and their interpretations. If set A of reactions is frequent and common with protocol X and set B of reactions is frequent and common with protocol Y there could be many different causes or combinations of causes is all I'm saying. That could be suggestive that if you were to switch protocols that you could change the reaction set, but that is not guaranteed. There are no guarantees in any of this. However incidence of the kind of reactions you are having in hundreds of people who have tried the active b12 protocol that have reported to me is "none reported". If it happened it wasn't so severe that they thought it worth mentioning or differentiated it from the much more common startup reactions.
Let's consider methylb12 as a methylator. Methylcobalamin, and all the others, have a molecular weght of over 1600 of which 18 is the molecular weight of the CH3, the methyl group. Compared to TMG, which has 3 methyl groups attached to a low weight sugar, or choline which has 4 groups or 200-400mg of SAM-e which has considerable methyl groups to donate, methylb12, say 1mg has about 11mcg of methyl group to donate, methylb12 is a lightweight methylator. It normally generates a small amount SAM-e in the methionine-homocysteine process, SAM-e being the universal methylator in the body. One mg of methylb12 generatres very little SAM-e compared to taking 200mg of SAM-e. However methylb12 does 600 other things in the body. It also removes nervous system toxins of some varieties by giving up the methyl group and attaching the cobalamin to it, such as cyanide, or nitrous oxide, or botox and other bacterial toxins and in becoming an inactive cobalamin by attaching to those things is promptly removed from the body by both the kidneys and the liver. Hydroxyb12 also attaches to some of those same toxins and removes them the same way. The difference is that methylb12 has healing characterisitics not duplicated by hydroxyb12 because hydroxyb12 can only generate a trickle of mb12 and adb12 which are the ONLY 2 active forms. Reacting with cyanide, a common toxin is a chemical reaction as the cyanide causes a plus 3 oxidation state compared to the plus 2 of hb12 or plus 1 of the mb12 and hence sort of literally hijacks the lower oxidation state coblamin and disables it. Hb12, mb12 and adb12 can all be used in large quantity (multiple 35 gram infusions) to detoxify cyanide poisoning. It takes a lot compared to very little cyanide because cyanide has a weight of 26 compared to the 1600+ cobalamin and each 1600+ cobalamin can only attach to one cyanide group.
So, as methylb12 generates SAM-e which you find agreeable, as do I, compared to 200mg (200,000mcg) of SAM-e, the effect of 1000mcg (1mg) of methylb12 as a methylator wouldn't even be noticable. The hyper reactivity you are having is characteristic of extreme methylb12 deficiency. I was hypersenstive as well and could easily rank various brands of b12 because of that. To come up with the ratings for the brands I assembled a panel of 5 hypersensitive testers. I had taken cyanocobalamin for 30 years. My intital reation to a 5 star 1mg methylb12 floored me, quite literally for more than an hour. At the end of the time I almost flew up the stairs for the first time in 16 years to tell my wife the news. The lights had come on, a lot of the severe abnormal fatigue had lifted and my prayers had been answered in a bottle. In the vegetarian cultures the "tantric meal" includes active b12s in beef and fish and omega3 oils in fish. In a vegetarian this can produce a profound effect in several hours that aids in having a spiritual experience.
There are research papers that indicate that a variety of inactive cobalamins attach to the receptors even more vigorously than the only two active ones thereby blocking active b12s and causing certain aspects of induced deficiency. Transcobalamin 3 (TCIII) is a protein molecule that wraps up inactive b12s, becoming holotranscobalamin 3 (HTCIII) and safely transports them to the liver for removal from the body. The kidneys also preferentially remove inactive cobalamins. The body has evolved mechanisms to deal with this hazard. People's reactions to inactive cobalamins can be quite extreme, depending upon their genes and perhaps other things like toxins, and shouldn't be confused with genunine startup reactions to the real active b12s. They are really quite different. I have been accused of having something against the intentional giving of inactive cobalamins. I do. They can make some people quite ill as well as being totally ineffective in about 20-40% of people generally and over 60% of people with certain sets of genes.
So looking at your severe active b12 deficiency symptoms, in part as a reaction to hydroxyb12, makes a lot of sense from the theoretical and hypothetical basis from which I come as well as all of my pragmatic experience. Of all the people I know of who switched to methylb12 and adenosylb12 from hydroxycobalamin, not a single one switched back. I know of one man who still has a load if it in his freezer, free from NHS in the UK, as he would rather buy the active forms. And he had beneficial effects from the hydroxycobalamin though he only took it a few months so the detrimental effects hadn't had time to build up, if they were going to. Extreme deficiency can occur without regard to test numbers and despite taking, and maybe because of taking, inactive cobalamins or even only 1 of the active cobalamins.
Anyway, if what I have said makes sense to you, or you have questions and want clarification or some ideas of what to do to make the changeover, let's talk about it. This is a path I've walked, that of extreme reaction to b12 and severe deficiency problems. There are no guarantees. I was desparate because I had been so ill for so long and my body was breaking down and didn't have far to go to stop working entirely. I do understand fear of changing things because "what if they get worse?". They already are worse. And all sorts of people had all sorts of hypothesis including the "detox" theory. I had tried all manner of things for 25 years. Only one approach worked for me, the one I'm describing. Good luck and good health.