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Pain catastrophizing: More profound stupidity

DeGenesis

Senior Member
Messages
172
I doubt ME/CFS patients have lower thresholds.

btw, who qualifies the threshold? And how?

Sorry for the mistake, I meant they have a higher threshold. I don't know what the method is called. The science is on your side here, don't get me wrong. mRNA of receptors associated with pain perception is higher in periods of PEM, for expanple..
 
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DeGenesis

Senior Member
Messages
172
"Catastrophizing" in the psychological sense used in this paper means having an excessive response to the situation. When the response is natural, it's not (supposed to be) considered catastrophizing. Claiming you are going to die from a headache would be catastrophizing. Being miserable and not socializing because of extreme pain is in a sense a catastrophe, but it's not catastrophizing in the psychological sense, nor is talking about your pain.

The problem with these idiots and their ilk, is that they assume we have little or no pain, so any response to the (in their minds) nonexistent pain is excessive. If only we could make them walk a mile in our shoes....

Don't get me wrong, I'm not agreeing with those idiots. I'm just attacking their position from a different standpoint. Pain is by its very nature catastrophic. Telling someone not to view their pain in a catastrophic sense is like telling something that the disaster ravaging their town is no worry and that they should stay in their house and ignore it.
 
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SOC

Senior Member
Messages
7,849
Sorry for the mistake, I meant they have a higher threshold. I don't know what the method is called. The science is on your side here, don't get me wrong. mRNA of receptors associated with pain is higher in periods of PEM, for example..
That's what I thought. :) My memory is that contrary to the false stereotypes spread by the BPS school, well-characterized PWME have been found to have higher pain thresholds and lower susceptibility to placebo effect than average. Averages, of course, are averages and individuals in both groups fall all across the spectrum. The point is that as a whole, PWME are unlikely to be complaining overmuch or imagining changes in their health one way or the other.

If we're looking for whiners and catastrophizers, we need look no further than Wessely and his cronies who are afraid of sick people to the point of asking for police protection and other extra security because they got some nasty letters. Claiming it's safer to be in a war zone than in the UK facing angry ME patients is catastrophizing at its best.
 

out2lunch

Senior Member
Messages
204
The problem with these idiots and their ilk, is that they assume we have little or no pain, so any response to the (in their minds) nonexistent pain is excessive. If only we could make them walk a mile in our shoes....
I know precisely how we can "make them walk a mile in our shoes," at least put their bodies in the same oxygen depleted state we experience with PEM.

For those of us who've done the 2-day CPET, we have solid objective evidence that our anaerobic thresholds are disastrously low. And when we force ourselves to work above those low anaerobic thresholds -- you know, live our everyday lives -- which robs our bodies of necessary oxygen while doing that work… we crash. Hard. With lots and lots of pain.

So… I propose that we challenge these brainiacs to do a similar test that forces them to work well beyond their anaerobic thresholds and see how well they recover. It might be more of a challenge to get their healthy bodies above and beyond their normal anaerobic thresholds, but I'm sure testing methods can be developed to reach that goal.

Less than 10 minutes of CPET for us, I feel, is somewhat equivalent to what average folks experience when they move their household belongings: a very long and strenuous day of lifting and hauling heavy boxes, resulting in sore muscles and bone numbing fatigue.

That's what we get from the CPET but in a far, far shorter timespan. If only they could see that.
 

DeGenesis

Senior Member
Messages
172
The phrase "pain catastrophizing" makes no sense. To not see someone else's pain as a catastrophe is to reject basic human empathy. You would have to deny that the person was in any pain at all. In which case it would just be catastrophizing, not pain catastrophizing. It doesn't make sense to put the words pain and catastrophe together, since they are synonymous. I think that's what you were saying, SOC. Maybe you understand my idea better than I do.

I have been in severe chronic pain for years, so perhaps I understand the frustration of all of you who have have ME/CFS much more clearly now, especially after I saw my own anger at the term "pain catastrophizing".
 

SOC

Senior Member
Messages
7,849
So… I propose that we challenge these brainiacs to do a similar test that forces them to work well beyond their anaerobic thresholds and see how well they recover. It might be more of a challenge to get their healthy bodies above and beyond their normal anaerobic thresholds, but I'm sure testing methods can be developed to reach that goal.
Shouldn't be that hard to simulate our experience. ;) Put a heart rate monitor on them and tell them they have to keep their heart rate above the normal anaerobic threshold for their age (125-135 bpm) all the time. That means no sitting at a desk or standing still. Jog in place while you work or cook or whatever. No walking down the hall or around the grocery store -- jog or run the whole time.

No resting. Keep that HR above 80% of max for even the most basic of daily activities -- dressing, showering, eating. Then we wake them up 5 times every night to simulate non-restorative sleep. They should keep that up for a mere week (like that would happen), which is nothing for a PWME who, if we lived the way they expect us to.. working and exercising instead of resting, would live above our ATs for years on end. Or until we collapsed, which many of us have.

Wanna take any bets on how long they'd last? :p

ETA: The more I think about it, this should be a piece of cake, if they are to be believed. This little experiment would only be simulating a fraction of living with ME. These people would be living above their AT continuously, but they won't also be dealing with OI, immune dysfunction, gut problems, or cognitive difficulties... in the beginning. :devil:
 
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DeGenesis

Senior Member
Messages
172
I can only wonder what that must have sounded like when I posted that they have a lower threshold, :bang-head:

Kicking myself right now. I never meant that. Just wanted to make that ultra clear. FWIW, I feel terrible. I mixed up my words. I spent a long time last night listening to two Solve ME/CFS webinars on PEM and higher pain threshold was talked about in detail in at least one of them, and changes in mRNA in the other.

Anyhow I'll let you get on with your discussion.
 

SOC

Senior Member
Messages
7,849
@SOC, maybe a comparison group too? Allow half to pace themselves (still having disrupted sleep and being forced over their AT but being allowed to rest when it goes over, say AT+20, and half has to keep over their AT. Crossover at half study duration.
I like it! I'm also considering adding in a forced dehydration component to simulate OI. It would be nice to give them a nasty virus for their immune systems to fight at the same time, but I guess that would be unethical. :D
 

duncan

Senior Member
Messages
2,240
@DeGenesis, please don't fret that. To be honest, I would argue we don't have higher thresholds, either. :)

We have all been there - writing something we didn't intend. Yesterday, on a different Forum, I opened a new thread about a study released at the end of July. I wrote the name of the study, and its authors, and where it appeared. I even re-wrote the abstract.

Then, I posted several concerns/questions I had about the study.

The thing is, I had opened an identical thread - different title - 18 days earlier - and I had posted my concerns, there, too. Only, I had no recollection I had done that. No remembrance of ever seeing the abstract before, or opening a thread about it, or addressing questions concerning it. Nothing. Someone had to politely bring it to my attention.

So on the grander scale of things - or even my minute scale - using ONE word by mistake is not only insignificant, it is something I personally would aspire to. ;)
 

Effi

Senior Member
Messages
1,496
Location
Europe
Kicking myself right now. I never meant that. Just wanted to make that ultra clear. FWIW, I feel terrible. I mixed up my words.
Don't worry about it - just blame it on mushy brain! It's nothing but the complete and honest truth :cool:
 

Snow Leopard

Hibernating
Messages
5,902
Location
South Australia
The problem with the current evidence that it is circular - those that report their pain as being more severe (than others with similar conditions) also have more distress and ruminating behaviour. But to assume that the rumination itself causes a feedback loop and a higher level of pain seems to be based on circular reasoning. To make that claim needs both greater breath and depth of evidence - specifically evidence that does not rely on self-reports.

The mistake that most psychologists make is confusing questionnaire answering behaviour with the underlying phenomena. What I mean is that psychologists take the questionnaire responses as gospel, rather than realising they are just another biased way of trying to measure things.
 

alkt

Senior Member
Messages
339
Location
uk
That's what I thought. :) My memory is that contrary to the false stereotypes spread by the BPS school, well-characterized PWME have been found to have higher pain thresholds and lower susceptibility to placebo effect than average. Averages, of course, are averages and individuals in both groups fall all across the spectrum. The point is that as a whole, PWME are unlikely to be complaining overmuch or imagining changes in their health one way or the other.

If we're looking for whiners and catastrophizers, we need look no further than Wessely and his cronies who are afraid of sick people to the point of asking for police protection and other extra security because they got some nasty letters. Claiming it's safer to be in a war zone than in the UK facing angry ME patients is catastrophizing at its best.
i have not heard of any reports of any persons with m e /c f s attacking anyone considering the way we have been treated an occasional verbal rebuttal of doctors/ consultants insistance that our pain and other symptoms are down to some fallacious or wrong way of thinking is only to be expected. or do they think any body who is not in their field of "expertise" is not qualified to say anything other than heres the cheque.
 

alkt

Senior Member
Messages
339
Location
uk
@DeGenesis, please don't fret that. To be honest, I would argue we don't have higher thresholds, either. :)

We have all been there - writing something we didn't intend. Yesterday, on a different Forum, I opened a new thread about a study released at the end of July. I wrote the name of the study, and its authors, and where it appeared. I even re-wrote the abstract.

Then, I posted several concerns/questions I had about the study.

The thing is, I had opened an identical thread - different title - 18 days earlier - and I had posted my concerns, there, too. Only, I had no recollection I had done that. No remembrance of ever seeing the abstract before, or opening a thread about it, or addressing questions concerning it. Nothing. Someone had to politely bring it to my attention.

So on the grander scale of things - or even my minute scale - using ONE word by mistake is not only insignificant, it is something I personally would aspire to. ;)
it seems that it may be possible that our desire to forget the truly horrendous days as soon as possible .also effects our memory of events we need to keep.... the only way i have stayed sane over the years is to bury every really bad day as soon as possible.and then of course when the next bad time comes along you tell yourself you have survived worse. and it will get better.