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Vasodilation all of the time, especially at night

drob31

Senior Member
Messages
1,487
Does anyone have increased vasodilation all of the time, or even just at night? One thing I've noticed is that the veins in my arm are popping out like I just did some intense exercise almost all the time but especially at night.

I know cortisol is a vasoconstrictor, but it always seems to be high on my saliva tests. Is it possible that NO overrides this vasodilation?
 

halcyon

Senior Member
Messages
2,482
The same thing happens to me at night. It usually goes along with feeling very warm. I don't quite follow where you're going with your last sentence.
 

Thinktank

Senior Member
Messages
1,640
Location
Europe
I have the same problem. The vasodilation is pronounced all day but gets worse after meals and during hot temperatures. I then have to lie down otherwise i get a feeling that i may pass out any time.

I use a very high dose hydroxyB12 by I.M. injection that mops up excess NO. I doubt NO is causing the vasodilation but maybe it's different in your case. Unlike you i'm quite low in cortisol.

Perhaps you have a problem with histamine?
 

drob31

Senior Member
Messages
1,487
The same thing happens to me at night. It usually goes along with feeling very warm. I don't quite follow where you're going with your last sentence.

I mean that if my cortisol is high my veins should be narrow due to vasoconstriction. However the opposite happens which appears to be NO or nitric oxide mediated. So the NO would override the effects of cortisol.
 

drob31

Senior Member
Messages
1,487
I have the same problem. The vasodilation is pronounced all day but gets worse after meals and during hot temperatures. I then have to lie down otherwise i get a feeling that i may pass out any time.

I use a very high dose hydroxyB12 by I.M. injection that mops up excess NO. I doubt NO is causing the vasodilation but maybe it's different in your case. Unlike you i'm quite low in cortisol.

Perhaps you have a problem with histamine?


Good point, actually histamine is something I've recently been speculating. Maybe my use of benadryl is related. Also could this all be food allergy related? Ground beef makes me very sleepy. Maybe it has to do with the gut flora.
 

drob31

Senior Member
Messages
1,487
The same thing happens to me at night. It usually goes along with feeling very warm. I don't quite follow where you're going with your last sentence.


I also wanted to mention I feel very warm as well. Do you think this is related to cortisol in any way?

One hypothesis I had was that, cortisol was either increasing or lowering. The result of this was that the t3 had pooled in the blood was now available to the cells. Thyroid hormone has a vasodilating effect.

High cortisol can cause cellular thyroid resistance, just like low cortisol can prevent t3 from making it into the cells. High or low cortisol could theorectically cause the same result: hypothyroid symptoms.

Another possibility is histamines being generated by gut bacteria. But why it always happens at night is perplexing.
 

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,092
One thing I've noticed is that the veins in my arm are popping out like I just did some intense exercise almost all the time but especially at night.
I have associated this symptom to high ammonia and it gets worse after 6PM and even worse from 8PM on. Now it's under control after my protocol of oral magnesium and bicarb baths.
I even started to call it "6 o'clock blues".
 

MeSci

ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?
Messages
8,231
Location
Cornwall, UK
I often have prominent veins in my hands, but when I lift my arms the veins subside. So it seems to be to do with a passive process, where they dilate when more blood moves into the veins due to gravity.

As an experiment I just tried bending and unbending my arm a few times, and the veins went down. Then when at rest, they came up again.
 

JaimeS

Senior Member
Messages
3,408
Location
Silicon Valley, CA
Yeah. I've really been trying to put my finger on this one. (Ha. Ha. Ha....)

Definitely worse in the PM in my experience as well; definitely worse in the heat, although that makes sense from a purely physics standpoint (most liquids, blood included, expand when they're heated). Definitely relieved (for an instant) by putting my hands over my head, as @MeSci says. We are probably all talking about the same thing.

When bad, helped by high CoQ10, but I wouldn't read anything into that, per se. CoQ10 can help with any energy-related issue, so it doesn't exactly narrow the field.

@Gondwanaland, you were talking about lactate dehydrogenase earlier, in the thread about reduced glycolysis. If we had low lactate dehydrogenase, we wouldn't break down lactate as easily?

The lactic acid hypothesis is because one of the effects of metabolic acidosis is peripheral vasodilation; and when mine's pretty bad, I see the veins in my feet widening, too. I hate to use foregone conclusions, but I think it's widely accepted that many of us have some kind of lactic acid issue, so this isn't much of a leap.

[Edit: And @drob31 , my cortisol is low-normal, so high cortisol may not be related in this case.]

-J
 

JaimeS

Senior Member
Messages
3,408
Location
Silicon Valley, CA
Oh, and a friend of mine who (probably?) doesn't have ME experiences the same thing in the summer as well. I think it's a sign of debility, but perhaps not profound debility.

-J
 

Thinktank

Senior Member
Messages
1,640
Location
Europe
My L-lactate and D-lactate levels came back high (from intestinal dysbiosis / fermentation), i wonder if that might cause acidosis and/or vasodilation.
 

MeSci

ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?
Messages
8,231
Location
Cornwall, UK
[Edit: And @drob31 , my cortisol is low-normal, so high cortisol may not be related in this case.]

-J

What time of day is it low-normal? IIRC, some studies have shown pwME to have reverse cortisol secretion, so that it is low in the morning, when it should be high, and high in the evening when it should be low.
 

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,092
you were talking about lactate dehydrogenase earlier, in the thread about reduced glycolysis. If we had low lactate dehydrogenase, we wouldn't break down lactate as easily?
I don't know about its functioning, but the chart that I llinked suggests that when there is too much oxalates (either from food or endogenous) the enzyme has its function diverted by them. I have had the bulging veins frequently and it wasn't from exertion.
 

CFS_for_19_years

Hoarder of biscuits
Messages
2,396
Location
USA
Vasodilation at night could be due to activation of the parasympathetic nervous system, something that happens to healthy people as well. Even though the article below, written by Jay S. Cohen, M.D., is discussing a disorder called erythromelalgia (EM), the background material discussing the biorhythms of vasoconstriction and vasodilation is helpful to understanding how everyone is affected by diurnal rhythms.

http://www.medicationsense.com/articles/2013/biorhythms.php

The Autonomic nervous System

Blood vessel activity is controlled by the autonomic nervous system, which in turn is controlled by lower levels of the brain (medulla oblongata and lower brainstem). The autonomic nervous system (ANS) is designed to work silently and independently of the conscious brain. Our conscious brains have enough to think about in our dealings with work, people, chores, responsibilities and life in general. Imagine if we actually had to direct how to digest our food, control blood flow throughout our body, synchronize our breathing, adjust how much we sweat, coordinate the muscles when chewing, swallowing and working, and constantly adjusting the lens of our eyes when we focus and accommodate for light -- and a thousand other simultaneous functions. The ANS handles these functions for us, maintaining physiological balance twenty-four/seven.

The ANS consists of two systems: the sympathetic and parasympathetic nervous systems. These two operating systems act independently as they balance the functions of the ANS. In general, the sympathetic system is the activating system, whereas the parasympathetic system is the resting and restorative system. These two systems play a distinct role in the symptoms of EM.

The Sympathetic System

Characteristically, the sympathetic nervous system turns on between 5 and 7 in the morning. The sympathetic system readies the body for daily activity. From the moment we rise, we become bodies in motion, grooming and then working until late afternoon. To accomplish this, the sympathetic nervous system increases the heart rate, breathing rate, cortisol levels -- and tightens the blood vessels. This tightening is not noticeable to most people, nor was it to us before we developed EM. But now, with EM, we can readily see the difference when the sympathetic nervous system activates. Except in severe cases, our EM improves.

The Parasympathetic System

As the day wears on, the sympathetic tone gradually winds down, relinquishing its control to the parasympathetic system. The heart rate drops, the breathing rate slows, and the blood vessels begin to open. These changes are subtle and usually go unnoticed in healthy people. Yet as these changes occur, people with EM readily notice that their symptoms are worsening. In healthy people, the vasodilation that occurs during the parasympathetic mode is usually small, but in us the difference can be huge. In EM, the vascular system overreacts to any degree of vasodilation. EM is a condition in which the normal control mechanism of blood vessel activity is severely damaged. At mild temperatures such as 60 or 70 degrees, our blood vessels open as widely as if it were 110 degrees. Similarly, the slight vasodilation caused by parasympathetic activation is huge in us.
 
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