Teasel Root - Experiences?

[adreno]

I got bit by a tick carrying rickettsia a few weeks back. I have been taking doxycycline for about a week, but had to stop due to severe head/eye pressure.

I have been using teasel root tincture a few days, starting with 1 drop and today worked up to 3. I got hit by quite a violent reaction, which intensified all my symptoms, including headache, eye pain, nausea, malaise, tremor/anxiety.

I am not aware of any side effects from teasel root, so would this be a herx reaction? As a side note, oregano oil doesn't cause any herxing (or symptom increase) at all.

 

[Valentijn]

@adreno - If it were a textbook Jarisch-Herxheimer reaction, feverishness and/or hypotension would probably be expected. But the strictest application of a herxheimer reaction applies only to spirochetes: Lyme and Syphilis.

But it does seem common to have similar reactions to other bacteria. So ... maybe it's a reaction to the bacteria being murdered, or maybe it's a side effect. But the severe head pressure and eye pain do seem pretty extreme, and I've never heard of eye pain being a typical part of the process.

On the other hand, getting the same result from two very different substances might suggest that it is a herxheimer-type reaction. If it was a side-effect of a drug, it wouldn't make much sense for a root extract to produce the same side-effect.

Basically ... I have no idea, and wish you could ask a doctor for help in proceeding

 

[Sidereal]

Adreno, I suppose you could try switching to another herb known to have activity against tick borne infections like Cat's claw and see if you get the same symptoms. Personally I get a vicious herx from this one.

 

[juniemarie]

@adreno I think its a herx. What I have noticed in treating my lyme and Co. is that after I have been on a regime of ABX for a few months and then add in an herbal, I herx, but it does not last too long, from a few days to a week or two.
The year before last I went on an all herbal lyme protocol, Buhners, and I the worst herx of my life,so bad for so long I finally had to stop the protocol, and I was in bed herding for over 2 mos. and even after being able to leave my bed it was several more months till I was feeling better.
I think I knocked down my bacterial load by being on the ABX for a while. The herx that herbals give me are a million times stronger than any ABX herx. Just my non scientific brain theory, but I think the bugs have not built up a resistance to herbals so it sends them into an uproar. There isn't an ABX around that they don't recognize and have developed some way of dealing with, or getting around, or ignoring or even….using as food….uuck!

 

[adreno]

Adreno, I suppose you could try switching to another herb known to have activity against tick borne infections like Cat's claw and see if you get the same symptoms. Personally I get a vicious herx from this one.

I tried Samento years ago, and it likewise gave me a violent reaction. At that time teasel root did too. I didn't believe I was infected with a tick borne disease at the time, so I discontinued.

 

[adreno]

Just my non scientific brain theory, but I think the bugs have not built up a resistance to herbals so it sends them into an uproar. There isn't an ABX around that they don't recognize and have developed some way of dealing with, or getting around, or ignoring or even….using as food….uuck!

Well, if that's the case it would indicate that the herbals are more effective than abx. And perhaps they are, I wouldn't know. There doesn't seem to be much research on this. But from reading the stories on the web, there seem to be a huge number of people who either never improve or relapse with abx. Lyme and co seems almost untreatable.

 

[juniemarie]

Not necessarily more effective. Many LLMD think you need them both….this is a very cleaver fellow, Lyme & Co.
I think in my case I have seen that herbals alone were to aggressive. ABX alone while they helped with decreasing bacterial load, it was the herbals that pushed it further. So the magic was in the combination of them, for me at least.
When you combine a smart bug with each individuals chemistry, DNA, other possible infections and viruses, age, how long they have had it, the combinations of what may or may not work are endless… and thats not including the many different types of Bartonella,& Babesia, each responding better to one ABX or another…..this is what frustrates both the patients and the docs.

I spend hours everyday on lyme forums, that have many many more participants than this little PR Lyme section. I get to read and take notes on whats working or not working for people. Abx, herbals, supplements, other esoteric treatments, and what combinations of what. What I have seen is although there seem to be a small consensus of core herbals and ABX combinations that have a reasonably good chance of working for lyme or one of the co infections, still there a quite a few who don't respond to it, or find some herb or ABX that is working for them and not for many others….Its the usual crap shoot, which everyone on PR is all too familiar with

 

[Martial]

Well, if that's the case it would indicate that the herbals are more effective than abx. And perhaps they are, I wouldn't know. There doesn't seem to be much research on this. But from reading the stories on the web, there seem to be a huge number of people who either never improve or relapse with abx. Lyme and co seems almost untreatable.

Yes, welcome to the whole contraversy regarding chronic lyme haha. I use Teasal Root it works very well, also a potent anti inflammatory. Just don't go above 5 drops three times a day in tincture form. If you are using anti microbials instead of abx you might want more of an herbal combo. Check out http://buhnerhealinglyme.com/. He has a lot of information in his books, and site for herbs to use. Not too much info on Rickettsia, I believe he is writing a new book on that co infection. However most the herbs in the core protocol, and others recommended work for a large amount of co infections.

 

[Sushi]

I tried Samento years ago, and it likewise gave me a violent reaction. At that time teasel root did too. I didn't believe I was infected with a tick borne disease at the time, so I discontinued.

There is also the theory/belief that these antimicrobial herbals are less specific and thus hit a much broader range of pathogens. If this is true you could have been "treating" something else that you didn't even know you had.

I take Samento and after a year of it, I can still only tolerate 8 or 9 drops per day in divided doses. I had to start with 1/8th drop to tolerate it in the beginning.

Sushi

 

[Sidereal]

Herbs also have prebiotic effects so in addition to killing tick borne pathogens they are making other changes to the microbiome like displacing pathogens in the gut. I don't have Lyme disease (apparently) and I still "herx" on this stuff.

 

[adreno]

I use Teasal Root it works very well, also a potent anti inflammatory. Just don't go above 5 drops three times a day in tincture form.

There seems to be disagreement on the dosage. I've seen recommendations up to a hundred drops per day.

Not too much info on Rickettsia, I believe he is writing a new book on that co infection.

Thanks, I know about Buhner. Funny how rickettsia etc are termed co infections. They are pathogens in their own right, and don't have to come with lyme at all.

Some of his more exotic herbs are a little hard to source here in Europe. Also, some of the core herbs I don't tolerate, such as knotweed. However, I tolerate pure resveratrol, and take it now.

 

[adreno]

There is also the theory/belief that these antimicrobial herbals are less specific and thus hit a much broader range of pathogens. If this is true you could have been "treating" something else that you didn't even know you had.

Even less specific than a broad spectrum abx? I guess it's possible. It's certainly possible I had one or several pathogens prior to this tick bite. I could even have a tick borne infection, although I don't remember being bit before. I tested negative on Igenex lyme, and never thought more of it.

 

[leela]

I have a friend who uses Teasel root and has to stay at a very small dose; I think she maxed out at two drops. And she had to work up to that. Otherwise, Herx-o-rama.
It might be useful to back off the dose and stay at the dose that doesn't make you feel bad for a while. It is important to work up very slowly.

 

[adreno]

Herbs also have prebiotic effects so in addition to killing tick borne pathogens they are making other changes to the microbiome like displacing pathogens in the gut.

The herbal approach is sounding more and more attractive

 

[adreno]

have a friend who uses Teasel root and has to stay at a very small dose; I think she maxed out at two drops. And she had to work up to that. Otherwise, Herx-o-rama.

See, I would think that if tolerance never improves, then it isn't herx but an adverse reaction. Herx reactions should gradually improve, and tolerance should increase. But perhaps this can take a long time if you are loaded with pathogens?

 

[nofuture]

I have tried teasel root from a reputable ND. I felt it was weak. i tried it for 1 month. There was no sustained improvement.

 

[Valentijn]

See, I would think that if tolerance never improves, then it isn't herx but an adverse reaction. Herx reactions should gradually improve, and tolerance should increase.

Yes, that has been my experience with my reactions to Lyme (bit dozens or hundreds of time, and tested positive). The reaction typically started after a few days of starting a new antibiotic targeting it, and was extremely consistent and constant for several weeks. Then it generally became intermittent and milder, then I stopped reacting. And then I moved onto the next antibiotic(s), and basically repeated the process

With regards to Bartonella, starting new antibiotics which can affect it has three times resulted in a new outbreak of the Bartonella rash within a week or so. Some chills and feverishness have resulted during my longer course of Rifampicin, though much more irregular and generally milder, and a mild headache 1-3 days per week. And also increased hypotension, but again, not nearly as consistent as the reaction to the initial Lyme treatment.

 

[Martial]

There seems to be disagreement on the dosage. I've seen recommendations up to a hundred drops per day.

Thanks, I know about Buhner. Funny how rickettsia etc are termed co infections. They are pathogens in their own right, and don't have to come with lyme at all.

Some of his more exotic herbs are a little hard to source here in Europe. Also, some of the core herbs I don't tolerate, such as knotweed. However, I tolerate pure resveratrol, and take it now.

Yes but at least with a modest approach you don't risk possible side effects as much. It is strange I didn't even realize or mean to apply you had a borrelia infection along with it. I guess its just such common terminology when dealing with tick borne diseases that its almost a blanket term. Well glad to hear you tolerate others well. A good substitute that is often recommended instead of knotweed is Stephenia. Pure resveratrol has benefits but does not work in the exact same way, Houttuynia would be good for yours, as would Bacial Skull cap, and Sida.

 

[adreno]

In the following (in vitro) study, the combined effect of the two herbal extracts Samento and Banderol, were more effective at eradicating borrealia than doxycycline:

In this study, two herbal extracts, Samento and Banderol, as well as doxycycline (one of the primary antibiotics for Lyme disease treatment) were tested for their in vitro effectiveness on several of the different morphological forms of B. burgdorferi (spirochetes, round bodies, and biofilmlike colonies) using fluorescent, darkfield microscopic, and BacLight viability staining methods. Our results demonstrated that both herbal agents, but not doxycycline, had very significant effects on all forms of B. burgdorferi, especially when used in combination, suggesting that herbal agents could provide an effective therapeutic approach for Lyme disease patients.

http://www.townsendletter.com/July2010/sapi0710.html

 

[adreno]

Cowden writes:

In the pilot study in 2003, we used Samento quite a bit, and still use it. But we've found that there are some other herbal therapies that have been brought from Peru by Nutramedix that work just as well or better than Samento.

And then he goes on to mention first Cumanda, then Banderol:

Cumanda is an extremely powerful anti-Lyme treatment, as well as an excellent anti-fungal. And also is a pretty good anti-viral, and anti-parasitic. So you eliminate a lot of different bugs with one therapy.

Now, besides Cumanda we have Banderol, which is a very powerful herbal antimicrobial from Peru also through Nutramedix, and Quina, which has been used in Peru for many centuries for treatment for malaria, but is also an excellent anti-Lyme treatment as well as a pretty good anti-fungal and antiparisitic.

http://www.nutramedix.ec/ns/images/stories/pdf/effectivenessofsamentocumandaburburandprotocol.pdf

I don't want to make things too complicated by adding in tons of herbs. But Cumanda and Banderol sounds like an interesting combo. Samento is quite harsh from my experience, and if another herb works "as well or better", then that would be preferable. It's also cheaper.