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Clear need for B2, but not tolerating it. How to get out of the maze?

picante

Senior Member
Messages
829
Location
Helena, MT USA
Yes, it's another thread on riboflavin! I've found some information that's new to me.

A concise list of B2 functions from this site:
Functions:
As part of (FMN) and (FAD) riboflavin is involved in oxidation and reduction reactions of energy metabolism:
  • Active in the electric transport chain in mitochondria: a major site of energy metabolism
  • Oxidation of pyruvate: a product of amino acid, glycerol and glucose metabolism during the production of energy
  • Fatty acid oxidation and the production of energy
Anabolic, catabolic, and conversion processes
  • Synthesis of sphingosine a component of sphingolipids required in cell membranes, an anabolic process
  • With Zanthine oxidase enables the catabolism of purine (a nucleic acid) in your liver
  • With aldehyde oxidase enables the conversion of aldehydes to pyridoxic acid
  • With aldehyde oxidase enables the conversion of retinal (vitamin A) to retinoic acid
  • Participates in vitamin B6 metabolism
  • Participates in the synthesis of the active form of folate
  • Participates in the synthesis of niacin from tryptophan
  • Enables the catabolism of choline
  • Involved with monoamine oxidase in the metabolism of neurotransmitters (dopamine)
  • Involved with monoamine oxidase in the metabolism of tyramine (may have a role on the central nervous system in some people) and histamine (involved in local immune responses)
  • With glutathione reductase enables the reduction of Glutathione disulphide to Glutathione (GSH: an antioxidant)

From the main reference book cited for the list above, Advanced Nutrition and Human Metabolism:
Synthesis of FMN and FAD appears to be influenced by endproduct inhibition and hormones including ACTH, aldosterone, and the thyroid hormones, all of which accelerate the conversion of riboflavin into its coenzyme forms, apparently by increasing the activity of flavokinase.
 

picante

Senior Member
Messages
829
Location
Helena, MT USA
The B12 oils guy (Greg in Australia) has been telling me that I'll have problems getting my methylation cycle rebooted without B2, and I think he's right. But I've had terrible responses to the two supplements I've tried so far (Source Naturals FMN and Seeking Health B-minus, which is a B-complex). I'm now moving on to R-5'-P and will report back.

Two possibilities I'm investigating:
  1. I've been on T3 (thyroid) for several years. Is T4 needed to convert FMN to FAD?
  2. Low phosphorus or sodium/phosphorus imbalance:
Phosphorus aids muscle contraction, acts as a buffer for acid-base balance in the body, helps regulate the heartbeat, and supports proper nerve conduction. It is also necessary for the conversion of niacin and riboflavin to their active coenzyme forms.
http://www.acu-cell.com/pna.html

Questions:
Does anyone here do poorly on some forms of B2, but benefit from other forms?
If you're hypothyroid: Do you tolerate B2 supps? Do you benefit from them?
Can anyone recommend a lab test to evaluate FMN-to-FAD conversion?
 

picante

Senior Member
Messages
829
Location
Helena, MT USA
I have evidence and/or signs of trouble in most of the processes listed in the first post:
  • My aldosterone is low and I'm hypothyroid (autoimmune plus impaired T4-T3 conversion).
  • My ND uncovered a problem with purine metabolism ages ago.
  • I've had high acetaldehyde (from candida) on a lab test.
  • I have a high need for methylfolate supps.
  • Don't know about niacin. I tried taking a tiny bit, and it gave me intolerable flushing (histamines?).
  • I took choline and got extreme brain exhaustion.
  • Don't know about dopamine, but I sure get grumpy when I'm thiamine-deficient.
  • I think methylation supps have worsened my glutathione status, although I don't understand the mechanism. I started on reduced glutathione lotion a month ago, and I suddenly gained energy and appetite. It's helping a lot.
 

mgk

Senior Member
Messages
155
May need to watch out for zinc and magnesium as well. Zn or Mg (either works) is a cofactor for Riboflavin Kinase which converts riboflavin to FMN. Mg is a cofactor for FAD Synthase which converts FMN to FAD.

Personal anecdote: Both B2 and B12 seem to increase my need for Mg significantly. When I take them together it increases more than either alone. I haven't been taking B2 for long so I'm still trying to find the right amount. I think I'm going to lower either the B2 or B12 a little to reduce demand on Mg since it's one of the more difficult nutrients to absorb and I'm already taking a lot.
 

ahmo

Senior Member
Messages
4,805
Location
Northcoast NSW, Australia
Questions:
Does anyone here do poorly on some forms of B2, but benefit from other forms?
If you're hypothyroid: Do you tolerate B2 supps? Do you benefit from them?
Can anyone recommend a lab test to evaluate FMN-to-FAD conversion?

As I noted in another thread, I had quite negative results to B2, and now, quite + results w/ FMN. I'm on T3 thyroid replacement, supplement w/ zinc and mg daily, as well as the other minerals. I'll compose a post re my recent FMN experience over the next days.
 

picante

Senior Member
Messages
829
Location
Helena, MT USA
I'm re-reading the B2 I love you thread and found this:
Feeling Tired

You can feel very tired when first starting with B2. Why? Because from your symptoms of low ferritin coupled with the nail ridges, thining and indents, it sounds like very little of your liver is/was working correctly. Thus, you may have accumulated a considerable amount of heavy metals. Your body can substitute mercury for copper, and lead, aluminum, nickel for iron and cadium for calcium. As soon as your body starts using the correct minerals from the liver when you add B2, the body then wants to rid itself of the heavy metals; as it no longer needs them. But as they come out of tissues and re-enter the bloodstream, they can disrupt the energy system considerably. Thus you can feel very tired. They can also cause may other symptoms. This is yet another reason I caution anyone from starting with high doses of B2.

I probably have some of the same liver & heavy metal troubles as the person she was addressing. And I'm wondering whether @mgk's suggestion of Mg and Zn support will help with this.

(Note I'm combining input from Dog Person and Tiger Person. And as for ahmo, she's got a whole menagerie -- from the southern hemisphere, right, @ahmo? You guys make me smile.)
 

picante

Senior Member
Messages
829
Location
Helena, MT USA
My Australian tea party friends?:D
Ah, yes, if I click on it, it's big enough to see they're having tea. That's even better than a mad tea party (I had one of those for my 50th birthday.)
That's the sublingual I was taking (1/8 tab at a time). And I need to get rid of all the sugar alcohols now.
 
Messages
2
Have you tried the liposomal b-complex? It may work better for you...

Also, for magnesium, I had great results with using magnesium oil and applying on the skin topically and I think that's something everyone should try as the results can be literally mind-blowing
 

picante

Senior Member
Messages
829
Location
Helena, MT USA
Perhaps you need a gut shift... What probx do you take?
Most recently, I've taken DaVinci Mega Probiotic-ND
Before that, Enzymatic Therapy Acidophilus Pearls

Before that, I don't remember -- any number of things that seem to have made no difference at all.

I've run out of the DaVinci now, which might be just as well, since it has FOS, which apparently can exacerbate SIBO. I'm lost when it comes to probiotics.
 

picante

Senior Member
Messages
829
Location
Helena, MT USA
Also, for magnesium, I had great results with using magnesium oil and applying on the skin topically and I think that's something everyone should try as the results can be literally mind-blowing
I've used that, too. And since I have the Mg bath flakes on hand, I took my empty Mg oil bottle and filled it over half full with the flakes and added water. I'd say I sprayed too much of it on my feet 2 nights ago, because I had diarrhea X 5 in the morning, LOL!
 

picante

Senior Member
Messages
829
Location
Helena, MT USA
Have you tried the liposomal b-complex? It may work better for you...
I'm dubious about B-complexes. They're likely to aggravate a B-2 deficiency (or trigger it):

Thought I'd add too your thread quickly. From my working with B2, I've seen that the other B vitamins rely on B2 to be activated or converted or used correctly. So by taking the B complex and juicing which concentrates nutrientes (but not much B2 in veggies compared to the other B's) you kept slowly depleting your storage locations of B2.

The other bad thing about taking a complex is that you can absorb the several thousands of % of the other B's they put in them. But you can only absorb a fraction of the B2 so the complex itself is unbalanced.

As I understand Dog Person (correct me if I'm wrong), taking any B complex, coenzymated or not, will further deplete B2 stores.

That was certainly what my experience seemed to indicate.