6 months on B12 protocol, in between rock & hard place. Then along comes glutathione.

[picante]

Hello methylation co-travelers, I had a rough winter. I learned a lot from all of you fine brainy people. My new update is the next post. Here's the background:

On this thread I learn from @Valentijn about VDR Bsm and try to sort out my vitamin D: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...monia-other-problems.34225/page-2#post-531879

This is where I give up on the B12 oils, concluding that I screwed up and should have ordered them without vitamin D: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/transdermal-b12-oils.33172/page-6#post-543742

Here is where @Freddd solves the mystery of my inflammation triggered by riboflavin: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/no-love-of-b2-here-a-warning-about-riboflavin.31639/page-3#post-551003

This is my clearest statement of my utter confusion about gut & brain malfunction: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...isease-martin-pall-website.34969/#post-550359

Later on the same thread I find a BIG clue: that homocysteine surges after meals: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...-martin-pall-website.34969/page-2#post-553080

Here are my 1,25 dihydroxy vitamin D results, confirming my suspicions about all that D3 I was getting from my B12 oils: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...-bingo-you-guys-were-right.35070/#post-581076

In this thread, I describe the gut infection from hell and discover my thiamine deficiency: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/mystery-of-the-killer-bs.36269/#post-573333

I'm currently hanging out on @nandixon's calictriol thread (and poll). @SOC made a really interesting conjecture here: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...nd-calcitriol-levels.37345/page-2#post-593578

 

[picante]

With methylation supps, my biggest gain has been reduced inflammation (low back pain, diagnosed as arthritis). It disappears entirely when I take as little as 1000 mcg of MeB12 / day.

My biggest trouble has been increased digestive issues. All along I've been trying to correct the problem of homocysteine-to-methionine conversion, since my symptoms seem to indicate a massive drain down the transsulfuration pathway (nope, I don't have the CBS mutation; I have MTRR and BHMT mutations).

• Bloating and gut discomfort while eating (I think this is neurological, and my ND agrees.)
• Grogginess and drugged feeling from eating (I'm in Dorothy's poppy field and I'll never get to Oz. Zzzzzz.)
• More food intolerances (dairy, thiols, chicken) -- the thiols can trigger neck spasms/migraine/nausea.

The thiamine deficiency was less severe before the gut infection, but definitely there. I'm taking about 300 mg/day of Benfotiamine and 100 mg of thiamine.

I've had to cut back progressively on MeB12 and AdB12 as the digestive reactions have zapped my energy. My ND brought up SIBO last week. He sent me home with a test kit.

A bit of reading brings me to the conclusion that I have had SIBO in the past, and I have it again now. Mainly I'm looking at foods that feed the problem, and remembering that 10 years on the anti-candida diet was only marginally helpful. T3 thyroid hormone was what improved my digestive symptoms -- drastically.

So it occurred to me that the sugar alcohols in the sublinguals might be part of my problem. I stopped MeB12 for a week (mannitol & sorbitol) and continued AdB12 (xylitol). Result: less bloating. It tended to happen after dinner (I take AdB12 in the afternoon). And of course my low back got progressively more inflamed.

Now I'm taking the MeB12 (500 mcg) as I climb into bed -- because I won't be eating anything, and it doesn't matter if I get groggy at night. No AdB12 right now.

So I need to find MeB12 and AdB12 with no sugar alcohols.

Since I've had signs of glutathione deficiency all along (even on 3 mg of MeB12), I started experimenting with reduced glutathione cream (Kirkman Labs) a month ago. My appetite went up, and I gained a couple pounds right off the bat. Gradually I gained more energy (including brain energy). Better mood, too. I'm out gardening these days, which was really difficult a month ago.

I struggled through a not-too-difficult translation in Jan.-Feb.-March. Now I think I could whip it off in 1/3 the time.

Thanks for reading! People who have helped me enormously: the people tagged above, and @Gondwanaland, @ahmo, @alex3619, @aaron_c, @maryb

 

[ahmo]

Congrats on your progress. gardening...

So I need to find MeB12 and AdB12 with no sugar alcohols.

How about transdermal w/o D?

 

[picante]

How about transdermal w/o D?

Yes, it's the obvious thing to try, but it's an expensive experiment. $50 + shipping for one bottle. The first experiment was $134 (3 bottles with shipping), and that failed. Funds are low.

I'm trying this next: http://www.bio-alternatives.net/b12.htm
Methylcobalamin + water. That's it. If it's not degraded, it should work.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Dear @picante today I am reading and re-reading everything thru a copper lens...

More food intolerances (dairy, thiols, chicken)

Dairy = somehow calcium metabolism needs copper, I haven't read about it yet
Thiols = chelate copper -- ALTHOUGH if I understood this right, glutathione grabs copper and stores it in the liver
chicken = too high in zinc, antagonizes copper

Reading recommendation:
http://members.tripod.com/~charles_W/copper.html
http://charles_w.tripod.com/copper3.html
http://members.tripod.com/~charles_W/copperzinc.html
http://www.acu-cell.com/crcu.html

My fresh personal experience:

Taking 10mg zinc for 2 weeks made me severely copper deficient. DH has been taking 10mg Zn for almost two months and had a scary mental and physical decline, weakness, sleepiness, lack of motivation, IBS-D, hepatitis reactivation, herpes on his chin (he never had herpes before), abdomen pains on the left side (spleen!!) you get the idea.

In addition, were were taking L-glutamine and B6, which promote RBC and WBC synteshis.

What happened to me was that I had a severe FM onset, had a blood test and found out anemia (one month ago there was no sign of anemia), extremely low estrogen, low testosterone, blurry vision at sunset, insomnia, severe cognition decline etc etc etc

When I realized Zn + Glutamine + B6 - Cu = anemia, we immediately started on a low dose mulimin I have at home and we immediately felt better, DH's IBS-D immediately gone! My blurry vision gone and cognitive impairment improved! I am amazed!

Lesson learned: never take Zn w/o Cu or Cu w/o Zn...

I must confess that I am taking Zn+Cu in the morning and a tiny bit of Cu just before sunset, and don't have the usual blurry sunset. Could that be the time the body starts hematopoiesis?

This explains the liver pate, chocolate and nuts cravings...

 

[picante]

Izzy, I clicked on this and it warped my brain just from the layout, , so I beat a hasty retreat back to acu-cell
and everything slipped back into place. I love that site!

The correct approach consists of making copper (or calcium) more bioavailable by supplementing the proper
co-factors, with the best choice being those whose levels are lowest ratio-wise to copper - and as mentioned
above - may include Vitamin C, chromium, sulfur (MSM), molybdenum, nickel, or (rarely) zinc

Since I'm already supplementing C, chromium, moly, and zinc, I would be surprised if I have low Cu bioavailability, but it's possible (despite daily dark chocolate supplementation) that I have a deficiency because of the zinc supplementation (which I need, to balance the potassium which I need for methylation).

Chromium has to be considered first when trying to normalize copper, since it is its associated trace element.
Many aches and pains, arthritis, slow-healing fractures, sciatica and other back problems, various infections,
etc, can be relieved with chelated chromium (not GTF chromium), provided:
a) they conform to the left side-specific receptor requirements, b) calcium and magnesium are close to
normal, since they are also involved with various disorders of the musculoskeletal system, and c) potassium
levels are not below normal, since chromium is a potent potassium antagonist.

This is where I most likely have a problem -- I have calcium deficiency symptoms, as you have pointed out. My ionic calcium drops just arrived today, so that's where I'll start: take the Ca with my potassium and B5. And a little nettle tincture. If all goes well, I'll add a little Cu in a few days just to see.

Thanks for applying your now-functioning brain to the problem! How are things in Gondwanaland? I've always wanted to go there.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Vitamin C, chromium, sulfur (MSM), molybdenum, nickel, or (rarely) zinc

Interesting, I have been craving starfruit but definetly can't handle Molyb be it for the uric acid or the low copper
DH has been refusing sulfur foods (+/+CBS )

You know, I took warfarin for a while and until now I thought I would only have issues of vit K deveciency, but the FM during this past week made it clear for me that warfarin damaged my copper metabolism/balance

If all goes well, I'll add a little Cu in a few days just to see.

Right now I am taking 10mg:450mcg Zn/Cu in the AM and ~50mcg Cu at the sunset. My intention was to keep it until Fri, but I sense (liver) that I will stop sooner

warped my brain just from the layout

The absence of, you mean. Yes, it is a pity it is so bad. In order to read it I highlight 1-2 lines at a time.

 

[picante]

My intention was to keep it until Fri, but I sense (liver) that I will stop sooner

From the acu-cell site again -- it doesn't take long:

Taking a 3 mg copper pill for one to two weeks, or less, is all that is needed for an adult to normalize any copper deficiency,

http://www.acu-cell.com/crcu.html

And I sure wouldn't take 3 mg. What you're taking seems more reasonable.

BTW, have you had a histamine sensitivity lately?:

Copper is an essential component of several physiologically important enzymes, including:
• cytochrome oxidase, which is necessary for energy metabolism, cellular respiration, and myelin formation,
• superoxide dismutase (SOD), which helps slow down age-related deterioration of the body, protects from
developing chemical sensitivities (along with polyphenol oxidase), and it is important for normal humoral
immune response,
• histaminase, which breaks down histamine, to control allergies and inflammation,
• lysil oxidase, which is necessary for the formation of the cross-links of collagen and elastin,
• tyrosinase, which is associated with normal pigmentation and keratinization of hair,
• dopamine-beta-hydroxylase, with which copper serves as a co-factor in the synthesis of norepinephrine,
an important neurotransmitter and adrenal hormone that affects fatigue, mood and depression.

http://www.acu-cell.com/crcu.html

 

[Gondwanaland]

BTW, have you had a histamine sensitivity lately?:

Sure, DH and I started sneezing from nothing. DH's sinuses troubles disappeared from taking quercetin lately. But then hesperidin is a Cu antagonizer, I wonder about rutin and quercetin I think the antagonization consists in putting Cu to work, and soon one can be depleted!

Be sure to add silicon to your regimen. It helped me immensely with mind clarity, besides with its interactions with B1 and calcium metabolism.
http://www.acu-cell.com/gesi.html

I used to take 50mg 2x weekely. Now I am taking it homeopathically on and off.

I have always purchased silicon locally, but if would import it, it would be something like this, easy to take tiny amounts:
http://www.iherb.com/Eidon-Mineral-Supplements-Silica-Liquid-Concentrate-2-oz-60-ml/26014
Be sure to read a few reviews, the manufacturer has an interesting research section on their website.

 

[picante]

Be sure to add silicon to your regimen. It helped me immensely with mind clarity, besides with its interactions with B1 and calcium metabolism.
http://www.acu-cell.com/gesi.html

I've been taking the silica gel (Hübner's -- from horsetail), but I just ran out and it's expensive. I may try some ionic. Most of my minerals are now ionic drops (Good State).

 

[Gondwanaland]

Do you take Boron? Today I tried my multimin with Boron in it (400mcg) and I have definetly had enough from it

 

[picante]

Do you take Boron? Today I tried my multimin with Boron in it (400mcg) and I have definetly had enough from it

Nope, I haven't tried boron yet.

 

[picante]

This is where I most likely have a problem -- I have calcium deficiency symptoms, as you have pointed out. My ionic calcium drops just arrived today, so that's where I'll start: take the Ca with my potassium and B5. And a little nettle tincture.

Adding just 50 mg of calcium increased my potassium deficiency symptoms. I've taken 900 mg of K between 1:00 am and 10:30 am.

 

[Gondwanaland]

Nope, I haven't tried boron yet.

A number of research studies have shown that boron increases cognitive performance,[29] and that it can
be an effective addition in the treatment of osteoporosis by promoting healthy bone metabolism, including
efficient use of calcium and magnesium, and proper function of the endocrine system (ovaries, testes and
adrenals). There is also some evidence that parts of the world with low levels of boron in the soil have a
higher percentage of people suffering from arthritis in comparison to regions with higher soil levels of boron.
Boron Synergists: Copper.
Boron Antagonists / Inhibitors: Manganese, calcium.

It actually helped me a lot with mental alertness and I was able to take it for 2-3 months, but progressively lowering the dose from 1mg to 400mcg. Right now even 400mcg causes me parathytoid discomfort (left side).

Adding just 50 mg of calcium increased my potassium deficiency symptoms. I've taken 900 mg of K between 1:00 am and 10:30 am.

Calcium Synergists:
Copper, potassium, boron, strontium, sodium, CoQ10, titanium, Vitamin B5, Vitamin D, Vit K, [magnesium*].

How much folate are you taking right now?

How are things in Gondwanaland? I've always wanted to go there.

I seem to be stuck/locked in there, just like you with your translation

 

[Gondwanaland]

Hey, apparently there is a manganese connection. Do you have that covered?
http://www.acu-cell.com/femn.html

Manganese is estrogenic.
Perhaps iodine is really inhibiting something there.

High manganese levels are linked to estrogen receptor-positive, while low manganese levels are linked to estrogen receptor-negative cancers.

It has strong estrogenic properties, and as a result is the most important element when nutritionally treating menopausal symptoms, menstrual problems, osteoporosis, and postpartum depression, for which manganese, along with Vitamin B1, is most effective. Manipulating manganese (or DHEA) levels can be an effective way to delay, or (sometimes) hasten menopause, trigger the menstrual cycle again after starting menopause, or along with iron and iodine levels, affect the frequency, duration and heaviness of the menstrual cycle.

 

[ahmo]

I found horsetail herb, for use as a tea, cheap on ebay.

 

[Gondwanaland]

I found horsetail herb, for use as a tea, cheap on ebay.

I really don't know the difference - silica will be silica - but it is said that horsetail strongly antagonizes thiamine (the nicotine in it) and the preferred herb would be bamboo.

 

[picante]

I really don't know the difference - silica will be silica - but it is said that horsetail strongly antagonizes thiamine (the nicotine in it) and the preferred herb would be bamboo.

It will destroy thiamine in the stomach, so I don't take them at the same time.

 

[Gondwanaland]

To help boost calcium levels in individuals with chronically low calcium absorption, supplementing Vitamin B5
(pantothenic acid) can be helpful in inhibiting the antagonistic action of phosphorus (if high), while taking
extra Vitamin B2 (riboflavin) will increase magnesium uptake by inhibiting sodium and iron. A Magnesium and
Vitamin B2 combination can be effective in relieving one-sided Migraines if caused by elevated iron or sodium.
Titanium implants support calcium, but not magnesium retention.

Sorry for overloading you with info

 

[picante]

A Magnesium and Vitamin B2 combination can be effective in relieving one-sided Migraines if caused by elevated iron or sodium.

My migraines are not from elevated sodium, since salt helps. I don't have elevated iron. The one-sided headaches are triggered by thiols and rGBH. Not sure what else triggers them. My periods did.

I'm taking B5 and I'm not tolerating B2 (possibly because I'm lacking the T4 to convert it).