My (Strange?) Methylation Experience

[U410167]

Hi Everyone,


Firstly I’d like to thank each and every poster here for posting their experiences. This collective knowledge is invaluable.


Like many here I have had many years of baffling ill health. I have been though Candida diets, Adrenal/Endocrine support and Mercury Chelation amongst other things.


About two months ago my research lead me to pyroluria, this was purely based on many matching symptoms. With extra B6/P-5P and zinc (along with EPO and Manganese) I got a noticeable lift in energy and a slight improvement in mood. This encouraged me to research further which brought me to Methylation and this forum.


About 6 weeks ago I took a B Complex capsule that contained roughly 200ug of 5-Methyltetrahydrofolate. The results were dramatic. I had dragged myself through that day with next to no energy and this one capsule felt like 6 cups of coffee (but with only a fraction of the jitters associated with high coffee consumption).


Being worried about such an extreme reaction, I proceeded more cautiously after that, starting at 50ug and increasing by about 50ug per day. In the process I got some of the well-known start up reactions. I had one day of extreme depression (I have suffered from mild to moderate depression for many years but this was much worse), I then has a day where it felt that my neck was in a vice. This was resolved by drastically increasing my potassium. I increased magnesium too (all this based on advice thanks to this forum).


All ok so far, but this is when it got a bit strange. It all stopped working. Looking at my records I have now got up to 3.2mg of Metafolin, 3-4mg of Mb12, 1mg of Adb12 and 850mg of LCF. And nothing - little energy, low mood, low motivation and drive. Basically pretty much how I felt before I started the methylation supplements.


I stopped taking my multivitamin (Thorne Research, Citrate Formula, Basic Nutrients III Without Copper and Iron) sue to its Folinic Acid content. Then a few days later I re-read my B Complex formula (Country Life, Gluten Free, Coenzyme B-Complex Caps) only to find it contained Folic Acid! What I find a little strange is that this is the very same B Complex that gave me massive energy initially. I have stopped both the multi and B Complex for 6 days now. I seem to recall a note from Freddd stating that Folic Acid blocks Folate for 5-7 days (Folinic Acid for longer).


I expect in the near future that my methylation will increase as the Folic Acid (and perhaps Folinic Acid) drops out my system. What I need to know is when this does happen will my current level of supplementation cause massive over-methylation? The level I am currently taking is about 10 times more than when it last worked for me.


Any comments or thoughts would be greatly appreciated.

Many Thanks.

 

[JaimeS]

I've hypothesized that a swift boom-and-bust is due to taking something that pushes an energy or metabolic cycle to go faster, giving you more energy short-term; but eventually you run out of one of the cycle's components, and it collapses.

A metaphor might be helpful. Your body is a lord over a poverty-stricken people, so the lord has been rationing. This means no one in the kingdom is ever fully satisfied, and they are making their anger known in many ways. The lord decides that the way to fix this is a week of feasting (taking a 'pushing' supplement). He invites everyone over to the castle for a huge party, and it's a great success, everyone eating and drinking all the food that was to last them through the winter. The kingdom gets to feel full and prosperous - for a little while. However, when the lord invites everyone to the castle on the eighth day, he finds the larders empty. Now, instead of rationing food out in tiny parcels, he's got nothing left to give them, and the people begin to starve. He can invite the people back to feast as often as he wants (you can continue taking the 'pushing' supplement) but there's nothing left to feed them (missing components of an energy cycle): they're 'used up'. Now, no one can eat anything, until the harvest comes and the lord can begin to once more stockpile. However, that could take awhile, and meanwhile, the people are angrier and more desperate than ever.

In other words, you may even feel more exhausted than before. I experienced something like this when I tried Rhodiola rosea.

If it's worked for a few months, in that case, your body is back to its (unfavorable) version of homeostasis. Find something that provokes a similar affect without working on the same metabolic pathway. Then, a few months later, switch back. An effective timeframe is 4mo on, 4mo, then repeat.

Perhaps others can help you figure out why this happened with your supplement particularly.

This was a fun one to write!

-J

 

[Mary]

@U410167 - your current doses don't sound all that extreme. You're taking about twice the metafolin I am, and I'm taking about twice the methylB12 you are, and about the same on the others. Some on this board take more than you and some less.

Are you still taking extra potassium? I was hit hard with low potassium after starting methylfolate, and eventually discovered I need about 1000 -1200 mg. a day, regularly. I realized also I had had symptoms of low potassium prior to starting methylfolate, only I had never known what it was, I just thought it was some strange CFS thing that caused fatigue. So I have to be diligent to stay on top of my potassium needs. And I've also found that if I start something else that boosts my energy, it generally depletes my potassium, and I have to increase it even more.

I don't know what will happen when the folic acid and folinic acid are out of your system. It sounds like you worked up to your current dose of methylation supplements gradually, so I wouldn't expect an extreme reaction if you didn't have one before, apart from low potassium. I would just pay careful attention to how you feel, and if you start to feel too wired or something similar, cut your doses a little. Also some people take low-dose niacin if their methylation symptoms become too extreme - Here's a very good link put together by Caledonia with an attachment, all about methylation: http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...ks-to-successful-methylation-treatment.29273/

 

[ahmo]

I have stopped both the multi and B Complex for 6 days now. I seem to recall a note from Freddd stating that Folic Acid blocks Folate for 5-7 days (Folinic Acid for longer).

I expect in the near future that my methylation will increase as the Folic Acid (and perhaps Folinic Acid) drops out my system. What I need to know is when this does happen will my current level of supplementation cause massive over-methylation? The level I am currently taking is about 10 times more than when it last worked for me.

I'd gotten to quite a high dosage of Mfolate when I realized that my vegetable intake, which is folinic form, was blocking my folate uptake. For you, the folic may be, as you've suggested, acting in the same way, to block your Mfolate uptake. I had quite an intense reaction when I quit the veggies because I was engaged in a detox process. This was kicked into high gear, and felt like being on a runaway horse. Initially I stopped Mfolate. I determined this by self-testing. When the episode ended I had gone from 30mg Mfolate to 15mg. I later decreased the 15mg to 5mg just by taking int sublingually instead of swallowing.

As Mary said, if you feel over-methylated, niacin will dampen the reaction. I haven't used niacin in those situations. Instead, I put a 1mg MB12 in my gum, and it stopped the response quite quickly. It will be good to get a B complex back into your mixture. There are many posts and threads about how important they are. I believe Fred was using Jarrow B Right. I've settled on Swanson's Activated B Complex, which I split into AM/midday doses.

 

[Gondwanaland]

In other words, you may even feel more exhausted than before. I experienced something like this when I tried Rhodiola rosea.

Jamie, have you written about it in more detail somewhere else? I am precisely considering giving Ashwaganda/Rhodiola (in such rotation manner) a try.

 

[U410167]

Thank you all very much for your replies. It has given me a lot to think about. Taking each on in turn:

JaimeS - Wow, I wasn't expecting a reply like that. A great analogy and has me thinking in a different way. I support my adrenals, but you have reinforced that for me. I will also start with adaptagens again as they provided support in the past. I know nothing about alternative metabolic pathways, so that gives me something to research.

Mary - I am taking quite a bit of potassium (Chloride, Citrate, Gluconate and Bananas!). I think I was severely short of potassium when I started Methylation supplements, because I was following adrenal support guidelines and supplenting with lots of Himalyan Salt and avoiding potassium. Thanks for passing on the link from Caledonia. I came across this a few weeks ago and tried to access it. I couldn't as I didn't have an acount at the time. After I created the account, I could no longer find the post!

ahmo - I am expecting the 'runaway horse' senario, but I am encouraged that my current level of Mfolate is far lower that yours was and currently is. In fact I have started to feel warmer today already so I think something is changing as I type this response! I have tried Niacin in the past and within the hour felt a little better, thanks for the advice about B12 in this situation, perhaps my levels are a little low anyway in line with Mary's comment. Thanks for the advice on Swanson's Active B, I will purchase some as I'm not happy without a B complex.

Gondwanaland - I really like both Ashwaganda and Rhodiola, they have done more for me that all the other adaptagens I have tried. Again, a slightly strange experience though. I bought Planetary Herbals Ashwaganda and it was outstanding for providing calming balanced energy. I then bought another bottle and feel nothing from it. My conclusion was that it was either a different batch, or my body had taken from it what I needed?
I have tried many Rhodiola supplements and only one works for me. For some reason only Viridian Maxi Potency works. I have tried others with the same high Rosavin content, but received no reaction good or bad. Just thought I would share my experience.

I will keep you informed if there I experience anything worthy to report.
Many thanks to all.

 

[Mary]

@U410167 - a little tip - if you put the "@" sign in front of someone's name (e.g., @Mary), it will automatically put it into hyperlink form and also alert that person that you're responding to them

 

[JaimeS]

@Gondwanaland : I CANNOT believe I haven't, but no. So here goes:

Rhodiola rosea feels like I imagine ADHD meds do. I felt cheerful, focussed, energetic and productive. I enjoy writing. The two or three days I took Rhodiola, I wrote a novella-length work that might be my best to date.

My fatigue dropped away. I could think. I thought, in wonder, ohmigod - this is how NORMAL people feel! Like, every DAY.

Then I tried to sleep. Nothing doing! Well, whatever! Who needs sleep, anyway? And the extra jitteriness on the second day was like, who really cares? So I feel like I've had a little too much caffeine! Small price to pay!

But by halfway through the third day, I was feeling the wired-but-tired that is indicative of ME. Uncomfortably jittery, and yet exhausted. I thought, maybe I should take a half a pill today?

No effect.

I took a full pill the next day.

No effect. If anything, I felt awful, now - wiped out, exhausted, and miserable, like a PEM crash. It took the usual three full days of dragging myself around by the hair to recover - maybe a little longer, now that I think back.

I tried again, though, because those two days where it really worked? Were blissful. It was like I didn't have ME!

A half pill gave the same result. So did a quarter-pill. And yet an eighth of a pill did nothing at all.

(Hopefully) entertaining narrative aside, the point is that it worked like a charm for a VERY short period of time, then cut out quite abruptly, leaving me far more exhausted than before. I concluded that Rhodiola must push an energy cycle along faster, but if you don't have any raw materials to work with in the first place, you get that feast-then-famine feeling.

-J

 

[JaimeS]

@U410167 - Thanks! If you have low energy of indeterminate origin, something like Glycerrhiza (real liquorice) can help push cortisol a little. Something like Rhodiola can help push serotonin a little. Something like Cimicifuga can push dopamine and the sex hormones a little. All can make you feel a bit more energetic, but none in the same way (and Cimicifuga will make you feel fewer dips and dives in energy rather than necessarily increasing energy overall). That's what I meant by examining different pathways.

Ugh, Withania s. (ashwagandha) gave me serotonin syndrome, believe it or not!

-J

 

[U410167]

@Mary - Thanks for the tip. I wondered why people were doing that!

@JaimeS - I still have some glycerrhiza. My cortisol test came back ok, but I have symptoms of low morning cortisol, so I might try it for a few days. I have never heard of cimicifuga, I suspect low dopamine as acetyl tyrosine gives me a lift in the morning. I'll look into that, thanks.
Interesting about your experience with ashwaghanda. I am concerned about serotonin syndrome as I take a low dose SSRI.
Many thanks.

 

[JaimeS]

I felt totally betrayed by the Withania, @U410167, because I took it before I was sick and no such thing happened. Withania is like the most benign herb on earth, all balance-y with your cortisol and your serotonin and such. But my serotonin does NOT like to be messed with anymore, plain and simple. If you're already on an SSRI, as weird as this sounds, I wouldn't worry overmuch. You're obviously not sensitive to serotonin in the same manner I seem to be.

Cimicifuga racemosa is also Actea racemosa, or Black Cohosh. It is my go-to, five plants to take to a desert island herb. In higher doses it's calming and good for muscle pain. In lower doses, it's a gentle dopamine- and estrogen-normalizer. I discuss it here on my blog. It's under 'Hormone and Neurotransmitter Issues' if you want to just hit Cntrl-F.

 

[Gondwanaland]

If you're already on an SSRI, as weird as this sounds, I wouldn't worry overmuch. You're obviously not sensitive to serotonin in the same manner I seem to be.

Last year when my ex-endocrinologist put me on levothyroxine it made me run to a psychiatrist to ask for help. He then put me on citalopram and I found it helpful as long as I took half the recommended dose. Obviously my serotonin was downregulated, even for my +/+MAO-A. Then when I switched to compounded T3/T4 I was able to ditch the SSRI.

Still, I am the same person who gets serotonin syndrome from 25mg 5-Htp...

Jamie, thank you so much for the herb reveiw. I just can't afford to try each one of them blindly, and now you gave me a good idea about the actioin of them on a MAO-Aer

 

[U410167]

Hi @JaimeS I know what you mean by betrayal. A herb is supposed to balance out hormones and/or neurotransmitters and it completely sends one or more out of whack! We keep hearing about paradoxical reactions, I guess it's yet another one?
I'm currently only taking 10mg of Citalopram every 3-4 days, I have been on higher with mixed results.
Oh, I didn't realise that cimicifuga was black cohosh. I will look into it. I also wondered about mucuna for dopamine?
Outstanding blog!

 

[JaimeS]

Thank you, @U410167 - as for mucuna, sometimes I worry about the romanticization of plants from "exotic" locales. There are implications I don't like regarding the ethical harvest of such plants.

That said, I've never used mucuna in practice, just heard it's good for low serotonin and low dopamine.

-J