Voracious need for B12

[garyfritz]

Can anyone offer any insights on my fairly huge requirement for B12?

My B12-deficiency symptoms are not nearly as bad as what many of you suffer through, but they make life absolutely miserable if I don't keep pumping the B12. During the day I have skin-crawling sensations, fasciculations, very unpleasant tingling in my legs, RLS, fight-or-flight-like agitation, etc. At night I wake with tensed and twitching muscles, agitation, nightmarish mental state. Before I discovered B12 the twitching was increasing to near-siezure-like thrashing that I really couldn't control. I was only getting 2-3 hours of fitful sleep per night, and I was a basket case.

Thankfully I can keep the symptoms pretty much under control with B12. I'm using a triple dose of the Australian transdermal oil. If you believe their (animal-testing-documented) claim of 80% absorption, that says I've been taking the equivalent of injecting about 2mg/day methylB12 and 5-6mg/day adenosylB12. And lately I've been requiring more than that. Furthermore I don't seem to store any reserves of B12, since the symptoms pop up within hours if I miss a dose or reduce my dosage. Either I lack the ability to store excess B12, or even this amount of B12 isn't enough for me to HAVE any excess.

What could cause such an insatiable demand for B12? What supplementation could I add that would help my body make efficient use of the ridiculous amount of B12 sloshing around in my veins? Is there some way I can make the Intrinsic Factor work more efficiently?

Also, why would I have a higher demand for B12 at night? I can take a single dose in the morning and my symptoms are usually controlled for 12-15 hours. Then I take a double dose at bedtime, and the symptoms often pop up again within 2-4 hours. I tried cutting back to one dose at bedtime and I was consistently awake and vibrating within a few hours.

My SNPs are below. I already take a broad variety of vitamins and supplements, including methyl folate and a range of B vitamins.

Thanks for any suggestions...
Gary

 

[Gondwanaland]

Magnesium + Xdermal sodium bicarbonate?

Just recently @ahmo called my attention to this interaction:

And bicarbonate acts as a transporter of magnesium into the mitochondria. Magnesium influx is linked with bicarbonate transport according to the Dietary Reference Intakes guide from the Institute of Medicine. Magnesium transport into or out of cells requires the presence of carrier-mediated transport systems (Gunther, 1003; Romani et al., 1993).[3] ATPase reaction has a broad pH optimum centering on neutral pH, with little significant activity above pH9.0 or below pH5.5.[4] Thus anything that moves us from overall acid conditions toward alkaline that recover the neutral zone is going to enhance cell metabolism via mitochondrial optimization.

http://magnesiumforlife.com/medical-application/the-ultimate-mitochondrial-cocktail/

Zn and Mg are needed for melatonin production. These metals act in conjunction with B6.

 

[garyfritz]

Huh. How do you do transdermal sodium bicarb? Why transdermal? That article recommends sodium bicarb and mag chloride in water.

So the bicarb is supposed to help magnesium transport. How does that factor into B12 demand?

 

[Gondwanaland]

How do you do transdermal sodium bicarb?

Foot baths, shower scrubs, baths.

Why transdermal?

I get too thirsthy if I drink it + it's very relaxing Xdermally

That article recommends sodium bicarb and mag chloride in water.

The way I did it before reading this article was magnesium oxide orally and bicarb Xdermally.

How does that factor into B12 demand?

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/b12-increases-need-for-magnesium.35144/

 

[ahmo]

@garyfritz I was just posting this link elsewhere, and saw that I'd attached a label re melatonin. This is a long shot, you haven't actually mentioned primary sleep problems...but is it possible you're in a high EMF environment?


Resonance Beings of Frequency re EMF, melatonin
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=oS6FGzh3ygw

 

[Crux]

Even though there are many other reasons for B12 deficiency, I've found that treating myself for SIBO has been the most effective.

Over these past months, I've reduced the dosage from 15mg. sublinguals daily, to 5mg.

I took high doses of herbals, and, (later), very low doses of antibiotics. However, I have a lot of neuro-damage from the SIBO and B12 deficiency, and get neuritis from the herbs and antibiotics.

If someone can reduce the bacterial overgrowth that consumes the B12 with diet, that would be best.

A low FODMAPs, paleo-type diet, with lower sugars and starchy carbs have helped me the most.

 

[ahmo]

Over these past months, I've reduced the dosage from 15mg. sublinguals daily, to 5mg.

Wow!!!

This is really interesting. I just completed a Candida/SIBO purge. I also started a new brand of B12. I've found I'm needing less, or I run into folate deficiency. I thought it was about the B12, but maybe it's more than that, or something else. (I'm now using Bluebonnet liquid, mixed into some body creme and applied transdermally)

 

[garyfritz]

I was just posting this link elsewhere, and saw that I'd attached a label re melatonin. This is a long shot, you haven't actually mentioned primary sleep problems...but is it possible you're in a high EMF environment?

I sit in front of a computer all day almost every day, so, probably... But not as much as the days when I sat in front of a CRT. A LED display 3' away is not going to provide anywhere near as much ionizing radiation as a CRT.

EDIT: Oh, and I've mentioned several nasty sleep problems, but what do you mean by "primary" sleep problems?

Even though there are many other reasons for B12 deficiency, I've found that treating myself for SIBO has been the most effective.

Very interesting. I've looked at the symptoms of SIBO and I don't think I qualify. I don't really show any of the signs.

 

[garyfritz]

Interesting and possibly related to @Gondwanaland's Mg/K suggestion: I looked up the wikipedia entry for fasciculations (small muscular twitches just under the skin) and found they can be caused by Mg deficiency. Hm. And the thread that she linked mentions that Mg deficiency may be a bigger problem with methylation than potassium deficiency. I have occasional slight cramping in my calves. I take 500mg of Mg at bedtime, but maybe I should try boosting that... I think I still have some transdermal Mg gel from an experiment years ago!!

 

[Crux]

Usually, SIBO presents with gut symptoms, but, now that my gut is better, my more salient symptoms are neurological: neuritis, neuropathy, brain fog, agitation, etc.

Also, now that the infections are lowered, insomnia is much better.

@ahmo , I'm glad you're better now!

garyfritz, I hope you find the cause.

 

[Gondwanaland]

I take 500mg of Mg at bedtime, but maybe I should try boosting that.

I used to take 300-400mg of MgO at bed time + 200-300 spread in the day durin my Mg shortage.
I have seen people here upping Mg intake when actually they had to lower the Bs. Too much Mg will feel pretty much the same as to little, plus the need to urinate the excess.

 

[xks201]

try sublingual and oral. your product is likely underdosed or not absorbing would be my guess. injection would be ideal

 

[Hip]

When you take high doses of vitamins as you are doing, this in not done to meet you daily vitamin needs (which will be supplied far in excess of requirements), but rather because vitamins have certain metabolic effects when taken at megadoses. For example, high dose B12 hydroxocobalamin acts as a nitric oxide scavenger, and high dose B12 methylcobalamin boosts NK cell function.

 

[garyfritz]

try sublingual and oral. your product is likely underdosed or not absorbing would be my guess. injection would be ideal

Which product? B12 or Mg? The B12 oil absorbs much better than any sublingual I tried.

When you take high doses of vitamins as you are doing, this in not done to meet you daily vitamin needs (which will be supplied far in excess of requirements), but rather because vitamins have certain metabolic effects when taken at megadoses. For example, high dose B12 hydroxocobalamin acts as a nitric oxide scavenger, and high dose B12 methylcobalamin boosts NK cell function.

Hm. I'm not taking any hodroxo, so hopefully I'm not destroying NO. (NO *is* a good thing, yes? The only direct effect I'm aware of is that it helps the male sexual equipment work properly. Which would be a bonus, as I ain't as young as I usta be.)

I'm taking high doses of methyl and adenosyl. Boosting NK function would seem to be a good thing?

 

[Hip]

There is also the condition of subacute combined degeneration, which requires very high doses of B12 to treat and keep its symptoms at bay. This is what @Freddd has. Some of your symptoms resemble SCD, so you might want to look into this.

 

[pogoman]

+/+: MTHFR A1298C, MTHFR (4 variants),

you are homozygous for 5 MTHFR SNPs?

 

[garyfritz]

you are homozygous for 5 MTHFR SNPs?

Yes, according to MTHFRsupport: A1298C, rs1476413, rs3737964, rs4846048, rs4846049.

 

[pogoman]

Yes, according to MTHFRsupport: A1298C, rs1476413, rs3737964, rs4846048, rs4846049.

wow, thats an impressive number of mthfr SNPs to have.
I will just make suggestions on supplements to try that may help B12 utilization.

Lithium orotate helps B12 transfer into the cells and has helped me alot, theres a thread a page or two back in this forum about it.

Mitochondrial cofactors l-carnitine, riboflavin, choline and coq10 may help.

if you are also taking P5P be aware that large amounts can cause neurological issues.

 

[Sherpa]

Gary...

I'm wondering if you aren't craving something else that B12 happens to relieve the symptoms for temporarily.

How's your magnesium levels? What form and how much are you taking? I've heard high dose B12 can fire up methylation which use up Mg and push low levels into rock bottom.

 

[garyfritz]

Lithium orotate helps B12 transfer into the cells and has helped me alot, theres a thread a page or two back in this forum about it.

I took lithium orotate for a while last year and didn't notice any effect, but I plan to start it up again soon.

I take plenty of riboflavin but none of the others you mentioned.

I'm wondering if you aren't craving something else that B12 happens to relieve the symptoms for temporarily.
How's your magnesium levels? What form and how much are you taking? I've heard high dose B12 can fire up methylation which use up Mg and push low levels into rock bottom.

I take 500mg/day of magnesium oxide, citrate, aspartate, taurinate, alpha-ketoglutarate (in Country Life Cal/Mag).

I just sent in a hair metals test so I should have a better idea of my lithium and magnesium levels soon.