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the subjective feeling of infection/objective symptoms of chronic infection

msf

Senior Member
Messages
3,650
I've got a heavy cold at the moment, and I was sort of surprised to find that I feel a bit like how I feel when I'm having a bad week - not quite as bad, of course, but the feeling of malaise and the aches are the same.

It made me think about how the symptoms of ME might differ from the typical symptoms of a chronic infection, if there are such a thing. Obviously all infections have their own symptoms, but perhaps they share some too. I wonder if you could do some kind of statistical symptom analysis like Jason did for the two groups, and see how similar they are?
 

msf

Senior Member
Messages
3,650
Yes, but surely there is some way of quantifying this a la Jason?
 

SOC

Senior Member
Messages
7,849
Obviously all infections have their own symptoms, but perhaps they share some too.
I believe you are talking about something called sickness behavior which is thought to be cytokine-induced. There may very well be a way to sort typical sickness behavior from other ME symptoms, since sickness behavior has been fairly well studied.
 

msf

Senior Member
Messages
3,650
Yes, that is the term for it, but I was wondering whether anyone has tried to quantify it either in ME or in chronic infection.
 

SOC

Senior Member
Messages
7,849
Yes, that is the term for it, but I was wondering whether anyone has tried to quantify it either in ME or in chronic infection.
Might be tricky to quantify something as subjective as aches and malaise. ;)

I remember there was a researcher who studies sickness behavior from the University of Illinois who was at an ME/CFS conference a while back.... I don't remember that much came from it. Probably other areas of research in ME/CFS are considered to have higher priority. We all know we suffer from sickness behavior (there's another symptom name I dislike). The question probably is whether that's the result of on-going infection or a malfunctioning immune system in the absence of on-going infection.
 

msf

Senior Member
Messages
3,650
Yeah, I was thinking about whether the symptoms could tell us which one it resembles, by using something like Jasons case definition of ME and similar case definitions of chronic infection and autoimmune disease.
 

SOC

Senior Member
Messages
7,849
Yeah, I was thinking about whether the symptoms could tell us which one it resembles, by using something like Jasons case definition of ME and similar case definitions of chronic infection and autoimmune disease.
Which what it resembles? Infection?
 

msf

Senior Member
Messages
3,650
Which of the two processes you mentioned, that is, chronic infection or auto-immunity.
 

halcyon

Senior Member
Messages
2,482
I think there is a difference between ME symptoms and chronic infection symptoms, and I say this as someone that believes ME is caused by a chronic infection. I think it's all about where the infection is that causes the debility in ME. Look at people with hepatitis C and pre-AIDS HIV. They obviously have a chronic infection, with massive viral loads in the blood, yet they don't have symptoms of ME.
 

SOC

Senior Member
Messages
7,849
Which of the two processes you mentioned, that is, chronic infection or auto-immunity.
Ah, I see. Thanks for the clarification.

Unfortunately, I don't think it's as easy as comparing symptoms. If it were, experienced clinicians like Peterson or Klimas, who have seen hundreds, if not thousands, of patients would be confident about which it is, and as far as I know, they aren't.

Clearly, there's something unique about ME/CFS -- PEM. That isn't the result of sickness behavior, any known chronic infection, or known autoimmune condition.
I think it's all about where the infection is that causes the debility in ME.
I suspect you're right.