Need advice on taking DHEA

[AkeBono]

Hi guys,
My ASI showed high cortisol/low dhea/low sigA. I will need to supplement with DHEA as two practitioners already told. And to start protocol for gut issues also. But im interested in some experiences with taking DHEA (form, quantity, duration..).

- whats the difference between dhea / 7 keto dhea metabolite?
- im thinking about cream to avoid liver already clogged
- how much for how long; read 25 days on 5 days off.
- some of them have ingridients like gingseng or even MSM (cream) are they ok if having methylation or sulphur issues?
- are there any risk?

I will much appreciate your feedback.
Also if there is anyone from Europe and can recommend a supplier etc...

 

[L'engle]

I found dhea to have much stronger effects than 7 keto. 7 keto gave me a bit of energy with no side effects. Dhea gave me improved exercise stamina but major insomnia. I'm a woman though, might be different for a guy. I would try a small amount (part of a capsule for example) in case you have side effects. Also it can increase your desire for people so if you suddenly find yourself attracted to people more strongly it is the dhea most likely.

 

[justy]

DHEA made me feel very aggravated even at low doses, also weepy and emotional - that was at 5 mg a day, os even though I am deficient I have given it a miss.

 

[Crux]

I believe @heapsreal could give some great advice to you about DHEA. ( He's from Australia...don't know what time it is there.)

I'm a female who makes no cortisol, so I'm not a good example, but at one time I did respond very well to DHEA. More energy, better mood. ( I think I did make testosterone from it.)

I would recommend considering some added zinc supp. or in diet. Cortisol 'wastes' zinc,potassium, etc.

 

[heapsreal]

Not sure if your male or female But i will suggest if a male.

Normal advice is to take 50mg of dhea a day for guys. DHEA can aromatise to estrogen in men but dhea is important, so to help avoid the aromatisation many find splitting the dose helpful ie 25mg of dhea twice a day, so dhea spikes arent as high as it appears that this is when estrogen can be made. Otherwise another option is to add an aromatise inhibitor like arimidex in very low doses twice a week.

DHEA can be very over stimulating. What i started on was very low doses of dhea tablets 5mg, could probably start lower? AT the time normal doses were very overstimulating, so i need to start on very low doses. There did seem to be some type of a build up so i would take a day off it every so often until things settled. Over time 5mg of dhea daily become ok than slowly increased this over time until i got to 25mg twice a day. Everything below 25 mg was taken in the morning, nightly doses started at 5mg when day time doses were 25mg. This has my dhea levels in the upper 1/3 of the normal range.

I do feel it helps mood and although initially stimulating i think it helps bring a calm mood, maybe as it helps by working with cortisol and opposing its negative effects? Also dhea is known to help control inflammatory cytokines and help improve immune function, so some of their positive effects can be felt as such and work over the long run not the short run. Its not a miracle pill but its important to have hormones within a normal range for proper metabolism.

good luck.

 

[minkeygirl]

@heapsreal. I just started on 5 mgs today. Can it affect mood adversely? I was emotional today over something insignificant so I wonder if that contributed to it?

What do you mean about a "build up"? really overstimulated?

 

[L'engle]

@heapsreal. I just started on 5 mgs today. Can it affect mood adversely? I was emotional today over something insignificant so I wonder if that contributed to it?

What do you mean about a "build up"? really overstimulated?

It can really do stuff to your emotions I think. Just make you feel more in general or more angry, intense.

 

[heapsreal]

@heapsreal. I just started on 5 mgs today. Can it affect mood adversely? I was emotional today over something insignificant so I wonder if that contributed to it?

What do you mean about a "build up"? really overstimulated?

can affect emotions.

Build up, it just felt like it was building up ie the overstimulating effects, so i would take a break for a day or so. Over time this overstimulated feeling went, apparently its very common in those with low adrenal function??

 

[minkeygirl]

@heapsreal. This was the first day I took 5 mgs and I was angry and emotional most of the day

Will that go away if I pulse it and hopefully don't kill anyone in the meantime? J/k

 

[Mya Symons]

Hi guys,
My ASI showed high cortisol/low dhea/low sigA. I will need to supplement with DHEA as two practitioners already told. And to start protocol for gut issues also. But im interested in some experiences with taking DHEA (form, quantity, duration..).

- whats the difference between dhea / 7 keto dhea metabolite?
- im thinking about cream to avoid liver already clogged
- how much for how long; read 25 days on 5 days off.
- some of them have ingridients like gingseng or even MSM (cream) are they ok if having methylation or sulphur issues?
- are there any risk?

I will much appreciate your feedback.
Also if there is anyone from Europe and can recommend a supplier etc...

From what I remember, DHEA increases testosterone levels but 7-keto DHEA does not. 7-keto DHEA is supposed to be a metabolism booster that helps the body burn fat for energy. However, there are a lot of studies that say this actually does not happen. DHEA helps some people, but it can be hard on the liver.

 

[drob31]

DHEA/DHEA-S is antagonistic to cortisol, and when DHEA converts to testosterone--that is also antagonistic to cortisol. In men, DHEA is converted via the aromatase enzyme at a higher rate to estrogen. This would perhaps call for an AI like DIM, or as Heaps mentioned, armidex, or even aromasin (but those are extreme). Estrogen, however stimulates the release of cortisol, which is why DHEA could technically elevate cortisol if there are high levels of aromatase.


7 keto DHEA is a metabolite of DHEA, and could theoretically be used as an alternative as it doesn't convert to sex hormones, and it and DHEA lower the amount of the enzyme 11beta-HSD1 which activates cortisol.

 

[justy]

Bit confused here - does more dhea reduce cortisol? Just wondering, because I have been advised to take it as I am deficient but also have LOW cortisol most of the day.

I can confirm from my own experience @minkeygirl that 5mg of DHEA made me feel very weepy AND angry - just felt like everyone better keep away from me. Tried splitting the capsule even futher, but obviously that's not very accurate - tried about 2.5mg and still felt ENRAGED!

 

[drob31]

Bit confused here - does more dhea reduce cortisol? Just wondering, because I have been advised to take it as I am deficient but also have LOW cortisol most of the day.

I can confirm from my own experience @minkeygirl that 5mg of DHEA made me feel very weepy AND angry - just felt like everyone better keep away from me. Tried splitting the capsule even futher, but obviously that's not very accurate - tried about 2.5mg and still felt ENRAGED!

Low cortisol and DHEA almost seems like an upstream issue. Unless you have extremely low cholesterol, I would be curious what your ACTH and CRH look like. Your reaction from DHEA almost sounds like it could be converting to estrogen at a higher rate, and possibly lowering cortisol at the same time. I know some supplement with cortisol and dhea replacement at the same time, if they are low in both.

 

[minkeygirl]

@justy isn't that crazy? All day yesterday I was planning on how to get back at someone who was mean to me. I was just nuts! Everything just sent me over the edge.

Today I can feel my brain being better. I think @heapsreal said to pulse it until you get used to it but I don't know.

I found some little spoons online that measure mgs so that might help although I don't know if it's anymore accurate than splitting a capsule. At the low a dose maybe it doesn't matter? Also, maybe put the capsule in water and use a syringe to draw off what you want. I do that with a few things.

I'm afraid to try it though.

 

[drob31]

Have either of you two tried pregenelone or progesterone? Progresterone, assuming cortisol is low, and Pregnenelone would allow your body to dictate the path of hormone synthesis.

 

[justy]

Have either of you two tried pregenelone or progesterone? Progresterone, assuming cortisol is low, and Pregnenelone would allow your body to dictate the path of hormone synthesis.

Dr Myhill has suggested pregenalone to me - might have to give it a go!

 

[drob31]

Dr Myhill has suggested pregenalone to me - might have to give it a go!

There's an oral and transdermal form, so if one doesn't work you could try the other as well.

 

[Research 1st]

Hi everyone. Has anyone measured DHEA-S (S for sulphate not saliva) with Cortisol at the same blood draw at peak time (9am)? Did you find you ratio of DHEA-S/Cortisol was different than predicted?

I'd add that morning low blood sugar events, can elevate cortisol dramatically so I'd remember that if having a blood draw before breakfast and having a high test result, not to presume one definitely has a 'high cortisol' all day (and agree to take hormonal supplementation), when it may actually be chronically low normal.

Do we have anyone here who's found their bodies have run out of puff after decades sick? E.g. lowered adrenal hormones, after many years ill, but not initially? I'm interested in this being a possibility in some sufferers.

It would seem likely there being a real possibility that adrenal issues are missed as once you get diagnosed with CFS or ME, hormone tests tend to be dropped as at the start of the disease, levels tend to be normal, or low normal, doctors rule out Addison's and our adrenal reserve is then forgotten about.

Is that your experience too?

Thanks.

 

[drob31]

Hi everyone. Has anyone measured DHEA-S (S for sulphate not saliva) with Cortisol at the same blood draw at peak time (9am)? Did you find you ratio of DHEA-S/Cortisol was different than predicted?

I'd add that morning low blood sugar events, can elevate cortisol dramatically so I'd remember that if having a blood draw before breakfast and having a high test result, not to presume one definitely has a 'high cortisol' all day (and agree to take hormonal supplementation), when it may actually be chronically low normal.

Do we have anyone here who's found their bodies have run out of puff after decades sick? E.g. lowered adrenal hormones, after many years ill, but not initially? I'm interested in this being a possibility in some sufferers.

It would seem likely there being a real possibility that adrenal issues are missed as once you get diagnosed with CFS or ME, hormone tests tend to be dropped as at the start of the disease, levels tend to be normal, or low normal, doctors rule out Addison's and our adrenal reserve is then forgotten about.

Is that your experience too?

Thanks.

Many of the testing methodologies are based on testing away from meals 1-2 hours (saliva), and fasting (blood serum). I think this helps avoid the cortisol spikes caused by meals. Cortisol can spike up to 3 times higher around meals as it aids in the process of gluconeogenesis.

In regards to DHEA-S, DHEA-S is DHEA bound with sulphate and makes up about 90% of your total DHEA. Saliva tests generally check DHEA-S, and it is an option for serum as well.

Also, even though your cortisol rhythm supposedly looks like a straight line, it actually looks more like this:

http://selfhacked.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/cortisol-cycle.gif

I would wonder how many symptoms could be alleviated by fixing just the HPA-axis issues. Chris Kresser actually starts with the HPA-axis and gut when addressing chronic diseases.

 

[AkeBono]

Guys, Many thanks for your feedback!
I apologize for late answer - my condition didnt allow me to be fully present.

Been taking DHEA cream from Eurovital (similar ingridients with ones from US).
I started with 5 mg per day and after 2 weeks raised to 10 mg. Each time I have instant shortness of breath and my guess is I react to some of the ingridients. Since I am histamine intolerant. When taking 10 mg cream the breath problem take like 3 hours for 5 mg like one hour.
Otherwise I felt calmer for like one hour (5 mg) after taking it. This is the positive effect.

@Crux - What other minerals would cortisol "use" if you know? I added zinc like 10 mcg /each other day and some cod liver oil for vitamin A. Plus practitioner recommend some MG but didnt yet take it.

I need to switch the form of DHEA due to reactions - I see two options:
- to take something for histamine reaction before. but what?
- or to try capsules to avoid the histamine release from ingridients. in which way is it hard on the liver? the caps form...

SOME QUESTIONS IF YOU KNOW:
- When can I increase the dosage / by what ratio? I increase from 5-10 only once per day.
- How long should I take it? Considering that in 2 months i will start adressing infections.
- When retesting - how long should I stop taking before testing it?
- when stopping it I presume is not a sudden stop, is it?

Many thanks again!