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Herbs that interact with methylation

Martial

Senior Member
Messages
1,409
Location
Ventura, CA
Hey guys, I know I made a lot of posts lately but feel its good to know certain info or to show some interesting treatments I always find!

Anyways I wanted to make this post to focus on Fred's Methylation protocol and any possible unknown methylation blockers.

The traditional ones I have known of have consisted of Whey, Nac, Folic Acid, Folinic acid, and glutathione supplements.. Also too much vegetable consumption can supposedly block folate supplements so if someone was eating a bunch of veggies It is important to raise the level of folate supplementation as well.

Another one I heard of but never knew much about is possible interference with different herbal supplements.

I do not know about others but for myself I take a very protocoled approach with specific herbs in treatment of my own lyme issues alongside the methylation treatment. I originally just stopped all other supplements except basic multi vitamins so I wouldn't cause any trapping, however this specific herbal treatment is what I am using to treat my lyme disease and is working phenomenally! And without the added toxic burden of excessive anti biotics, and yes this also means herbal anti biotics.

I won't go into too much details here but the protocol was created by Dr. Jernigan and the idea is to treat the body to clearing out the infection itself... Using certain herbs to target the bacteria and support the immune system, rather then only focus on kill the infection alone.. Which never works.

Now my only conundrum is trying to figure out if this herbal protocol and the methylation protocol are causing some kind of adverse effects or issues with each other... I guess I could always watch for symptoms but its hard because paradox folate deficency and methyl trapping symptoms are exactly the same as what I experience with herxing, and general lyme symptoms.

I don't think the herbs could cause an outright methyl block on their own but I can never know for sure either.. I just wish there was some kind of test we could take or something to know exactly what is going on rather then going off symptoms alone! lol

Anyways appreciate any input or thoughts from someone doing similar?
 

Radio

Senior Member
Messages
453
Martial: Herbs that interact with methylation?

I have actually research this before, this is a great topic. If you are trying to reduce inflammation with out affecting methylation, we need to ask the right questions.


What Herbs are methylation inhibitors?


Also,

What Herbs inhibit mitochondria function?


I know that turmeric is a Mao-A inhibitor, supplementing with this herb can be a bad thing if you have the Mao-A +/+ mutation. I came to the conclusion that green tea extract was the best anti-inflammatory with the lease cross inhibition potential.



Turmeric is a potent MAO-A inhibitor

http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20100425/msgs/945178.html
Monoamine oxidase A
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monoamine_oxidase_A
 
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Aerose91

Senior Member
Messages
1,400
I'm noticing that any methylation makes me MUCH worse. I started increasing my HCL dose before meals about 2 weeks ago and I still haven't recovered. Sleep got way, way worse and my brain function did as well- increased psychosis. I don't seem to.be rebounding from this- did I over methylate?
 

Radio

Senior Member
Messages
453
I'm noticing that any methylation makes me MUCH worse. I started increasing my HCL dose before meals about 2 weeks ago and I still haven't recovered. Sleep got way, way worse and my brain function did as well- increased psychosis. I don't seem to.be rebounding from this- did I over methylate?

Radio: (Warning COM +/+ mutation), HCL Betaine is a methyl donor.
 

tdog333

Senior Member
Messages
171
Niacin of course will soak up your methyl groups.
Lithium Orotate can help people with COMT and MTR/MTRR probably. It makes b12 transport more efficient and helps break down epinephrine i think.
Caffeine and alcohol will deplete b levels


Don't overdo green tea or soy:

http://nutrition.highwire.org/content/137/1/223S.full

Certain dietary polyphenols, such as (−)-epigallocatechin 3-gallate (EGCG) from green tea and genistein from soybean, have been demonstrated to inhibit DNA methyltransferases (DNMT) in vitro

Consumption of polyphenols from diet and beverages will not have a major effect on DNA methylation in animals and humans with a normal diet. The effect may be more significant, however, if the diet has limited amounts of methyl donors. With the consumption of large quantities of polyphenols through dietary supplements, the high tissue level of polyphenols may affect DNA methylation. This possibility remains to be demonstrated. This may also be a situation where caution needs to be applied to avoid possible toxicity from the oxidation of polyphenols. For the prevention of cancer, the combination of polyphenol DNMT inhibitors together with HDAC inhibitors, such as butyric acid and sulforaphane, or other inhibitors are promising approaches.
 

Martial

Senior Member
Messages
1,409
Location
Ventura, CA
I'm noticing that any methylation makes me MUCH worse. I started increasing my HCL dose before meals about 2 weeks ago and I still haven't recovered. Sleep got way, way worse and my brain function did as well- increased psychosis. I don't seem to.be rebounding from this- did I over methylate?


@Aerose91

Methylation protocol needs to have specific set points on certain aspects of certain vitamins like folate to make progress, if a person does it incorrectly they will get worse or induce paradoxical deficiency, or low potassium if not aware of that. Be sure to stick to a solid protocol like Fred's and follow the instructions to the Tee if you so choose to use it!

@Radio

Great post on Turmeric!
very informative, interesting to see how it has similar relief benifets to things like prozac minus the major side effects. Also interesting to know genetic mutation issues it causes!

@tdog333

Good post man I think this is important to consider as well...

I used pretty high dose of green tea extract to help with lyme disease, however some people can even suffer liver damage from too high of doses if it is not processed well.. Over all its a very quality herb, just need to be aware of people's own sensitivities!

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/22/us/spike-in-harm-to-liver-is-tied-to-dietary-aids.html?_r=0
 

Martial

Senior Member
Messages
1,409
Location
Ventura, CA
As an update I have noticed some contradictory reactions and other herbs that seem to complement methylation de tox quite well.

Eleuthero root taken in high doses seems to possibly interact with methyl supplements and cause some issues. Also known as Siberian ginseng I think the issue stems from functioning too much as a stimulant and causing way too much sympathetic system activity when combined with methylation. I have not taken it long enough or in doses very extreme to state for 100% but it seems to be causing some kinds of issues.

Japanese knotweed is very CNS protective and a powerful anti oxidant and free radical scavenger, alongside methylation support and the resulting de tox from toxins this works quite well. It is also a cytokine activity suppressor. Very useful in controlling the growth of certain pathogens and preventing body tissue/collagen damage. Siberian Ginseng is also a potent neuro protective but it still seems too stimulating at this time. Knotweed has no known interaction with methylation.

Lions Mane mushroom is very good at healing the nervous system and in support of new neurons, neural growth, and general healing of the CNS system, a definite necessity for anyone dealing with nerve issues from infection, trauma, accident, etc. no known interaction with methylation.

Chinese Skullcap is very helpful in shutting cytokine activity in different receptors the knotweed though I do not re call the receptors they both function on, very useful for lyme and co infections, alongside mycoplasma, and parasitic infection. Also certain viral infections. no known interaction with methylation.

Banderol has been a great anti microbial agent and has helped to bring down the load of pathogens without known interactions with methylation.

Cats claw/samento is a very potent immune system modulator, anti bacterial, anti parastic, anti fungal, and anti inflammatory. I noticed tendonitis on it so have switched it for ashwaganda, teasal, rhodiala combo. No known interaction with methylation.

Olive leaf extract/ Olive Oil. Extremely powerful anti spectrum for all pathogens, boosting immune system very well, helps restore healthy gut flora, and supports healthy fatty acid ratios. No known interaction with methylation though start in low doses, the herxing and de toxing here can be intense.

Will update with more herbs as I continue on, would be interested in anyone that has used adrenal support herbs like ashwaganda, rhodiala, holy basil, etc. Alongside methylation and noticed any interactions. I am on these for now but not long enough to make comments.


This thread is intended to find ideal herbs that help to clear underlying infections without any adverse reactions or interference with methylation support protocols.
 

PeterPositive

Senior Member
Messages
1,426
Olive leaf extract/ Olive Oil. Extremely powerful anti spectrum for all pathogens, boosting immune system very well, helps restore healthy gut flora, and supports healthy fatty acid ratios. No known interaction with methylation though start in low doses, the herxing and de toxing here can be intense.
This is interesting. I've seen conflicting claims about olive leaf extract. My doc says he does not use it anymore because he's never seen any result with it.

In my previous searches I didn't see compelling evidence for its immune boosting / anti-bacterial effect, although other interesting effects are document. E.g.:
http://www.lef.org/magazine/2013/6/Unexpected-Benefits-of-Olive-Leaf-Extract/Page-01

Some in-vitro, anti-bacterial effect is documented here, although not of the "broad spectrum" kind:
http://examine.com/supplements/Olive+leaf+extract/#summary7-1

Did you have any other studies in mind?
 

helen1

Senior Member
Messages
1,033
Location
Canada
Hi @Martial, I've been on freddd's methylation plan for about a year and also just started Buhner's herbs for chlamydia pneumonia 2 weeks ago. Thanks for bringing up the possible interactions, I hadn't thought of that.

I also finished carefully reading Buhner's Herbal Antiobiotics where he does have a section on the sidas. He says the main medicinal species studied is sida acuta but other sidas are 'similarly potent, particularly sida rhombifolia and sida cordifolia.' Also that sida tiagii and s. spinosa 'may possess the same medicinal actions.' He also mentions that sida contains cryptolepine, a DNA intercalator that interferes with DNA replication. Obviously this is good against the DNA of pathogens, but what about our own DNA? That isn't clear and I haven't looked it up yet.

The sidas contain a tiny amount of ephedrine, the effects of which I think I have noticed but not much. Definitely don't take it in the evening for that reason.

As far as methylation interactions go, sida increases glutathione levels "in the blood". Does this mean it increases circulating gluathione? I thought glutathione stayed in the liver, so I'm a little confused, but I'll take any kind of increase in glutathione.

He mentions in the preface why olive leaf is not in this 2nd edition whereas it was included in his first. He's not convinced from both clinical practice and in- depth research that olive leaf is as good as internet reports claim it to be. He says something similar about garlic.

Other herbal- methylation interactions, based on the studies Buhner lists in his book (caveat: some are rodent studies):

1.cordyceps increases ATP and SOD and are mitoprotective
2.reishi is mitogenic ie cell replicating
3.licorice root is mitoprotective
4.bidens increases glutathione and SOD

I haven't noticed any problems with my methylation such as increased need for folate or potassium. I do seem to have experienced some die-off from the herbs but overall am feeling better and sleeping better. But that could also be due to LDN started a month ago.

I'm planning to add essential oils thyme, lavender and chamomile. A c.pneumonia forum member has recovered from c.pn using those after doing loads of research, plus cannibis oil which he says causes immediate die-off and has also helped him immensely. He also uses saunas for die-off which I plan to start too.
 
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PeterPositive

Senior Member
Messages
1,426
@helen1 thanks, interesting post. I should take a look at that book. In fact it's already on my ipad. :) I will start reading soon.

At the moment I am using Echinacea and Ashwagandha for an immune boost with some results and no methylation side effects that I can notice. Uncaria was the next on my list but it's giving me some digestive issues.
 

helen1

Senior Member
Messages
1,033
Location
Canada
@PeterPositive The only downside in my opinion about his book is that it is only about fighting abx-resistant pathogens. That's very useful of course but for that reason it's not a comprehensive overview of medicinal properties of all herbs. I thought that's what it would be. So initially i was a bit disappointed. Then I started really reading it and was amazed that plants can be so powerful and have learned so much.
 

PeterPositive

Senior Member
Messages
1,426
@PeterPositive The only downside in my opinion about his book is that it is only about fighting abx-resistant pathogens. That's very useful of course but for that reason it's not a comprehensive overview of medicinal properties of all herbs. I thought that's what it would be. So initially i was a bit disappointed. Then I started really reading it and was amazed that plants can be so powerful and have learned so much.
I see what you mean.
I am reading it in bits and pieces and found some interesting things. For example almost all Echinacea supps I have at home are E. Purpurea which is not that effective according to the author, at least not nearly as effective as E. Angustifolia :(

Now I am learning more about Ashwagandha, which is really an interesting plant. I am taking it mostly for fatigue and as a mood stabilizer but I am reading it has some interesting immune functions...

What other plants would you have added to the lists in the book?
 

helen1

Senior Member
Messages
1,033
Location
Canada
Well, I don't know that I would have added any because his theme is abx resistant bacterial treatments. As far as I know the germ that interests me, c.pneumonia, doesn't fit into that category.

But I was hoping to read what he knew about all the ones on my c.pneumonia protocol. Of those, he doesn't include cordyceps, lion's mane, scullcap and pleurisy root. At the back though, in his formulary p363-80, he gives a few details about a wide range of herbs.

On his treating lyme website, there are other herbs not in the book that he has details about such as japanese knotweed and cat's claw.
 

helen1

Senior Member
Messages
1,033
Location
Canada
Hi @ebethc, Bidens is in the aster family of plants. Its common names include black-jack, beggar-ticks, cobbler's pegs, and spanish needle. Bidens pilosa is the one usually used medicinally.