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what would the perfect b-complex look like?

SwanRonson

Senior Member
Messages
300
Location
Alabama
Trying as much as possible to assimilate all of the information here, it seems that a great baseline b-complex to use as a methylation support would be one that provides about 200% of the RDA of each of the B vitamins except b12, b9, b6 and b3. That way you could scale up or down the rest in concert and individualize the ones that have the most startup effects (b12,b9,b3) and neuro side-effects (b6).

It just seems that the standard b-50 and b-100 formulation are completely arbitrary and dangerous, not to mention very hard to dial in for methylation support.

Maybe I'm misunderstanding something though.
 

halcyon

Senior Member
Messages
2,482
It just seems that the standard b-50 and b-100 formulation are completely arbitrary and dangerous, not to mention very hard to dial in for methylation support.
I came to more or less the same conclusion. The "perfect" B complex will be different for everybody. I like to avoid biotin and niacin for example, so I just had to put together my own complex. That way I was able to add them in one at a time and know right away which ones I might react badly to.

It's actually surprisingly hard to find low dose individual B vitamins.
 

SwanRonson

Senior Member
Messages
300
Location
Alabama
The perfect B complex would be different for everyone.

To clarify, I meant "perfect" in utility. It seems there would be a baseline for everyone where it's low enough dosage that you could take without risk. I would think, for example, that it would be hard to find someone that has a bad reaction to 1mg of riboflavin.

That way I was able to add them in one at a time and know right away which ones I might react badly to.

I guess that's the part that's hard for me to grasp. It seems like chicken or egg. If I add one at a time, how do I know if a symptom is related to the one I just started taking, or related to it's now skewed ratio to one of the few that I'm not taking.
 

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
Some options that are 'good' but not perfect:

Seeking Health's B-minus - Formulated by top mathylaton doc. It's got R-5-P and P-5-P... ..No folate, no B12...
Naturemade B-complex with C - recommended by @Freddd, it works well without overloading me
Yasko's All-in-One - very low dose, won't upset most people. Can be adjusted from 1 to 4 caps / day.

Hi Sherpa,

Lately I have been using a half of the NatureMade B-complex twice a day. Coming down on those B vits seems to have helped smooth things out.
 

SwanRonson

Senior Member
Messages
300
Location
Alabama
I love this one:
http://www.vitacost.com/emerald-labs-coenzymated-b-healthy-60-vegetable-capsules-1
but it does have more of some things than some beginners can tolerate. When I started it, after almost 2 years of methylation supplements, it was like the sun came out.

Yes, that much b5 would make me feel manic. Anything more than about 50mg of pantothenic makes me feel like my brain is on fire.

It would be hard to find someone that would be helped by that, too. At those low doses you might as well use food.

But if you just want the RDA, you could use this one:

http://www.bioticsresearch.com/node/1705

Thank you @adreno , that looks like exactly what I was looking for. I have severe SIBO right now, so absorption from food is not cutting it, even though I don't think I need much more than RDA for most of the B's. So something close to RDA would be easy to dose up and down by cutting in half or adding more pills each time. I think I'll go order this one now.
 

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,092
I guess that's the part that's hard for me to grasp. It seems like chicken or egg. If I add one at a time, how do I know if a symptom is related to the one I just started taking, or related to it's now skewed ratio to one of the few that I'm not taking.
I have been taking a custom made B complex and played with some dosages. The most interesting results I got was from B2. I started with 5mg of B2. Then raised it to 8mg and had bad results that I think are related to ammonia and/or serotonin. Then lowered it to 2mg. Same bad results o_O I think it somehow relates to my +/+ MAO-A and slow serotonin breakdown.
 

btdt

Senior Member
Messages
161
Location
Ontario
I have +/+ MAO-A and take B2 what symptoms do you get from B2? I am taking maybe too many supplements at this point perhaps not sorting it out properly.
++MAO-A R297R and ++VDR Bsm

Could also be that my other mutations need the b2
Here are your homozygous mutations as indicated in your SNP gene table above (not including MTHFR):

  • VDR Bsm
  • MAO-A R297R
Here are your heterozygous mutations as indicated in your SNP gene table above (not including MTHFR):

  • COMT V158M
  • COMT H62H
  • MTRR A66G
  • MTRR K350A
  • CBS C699T
  • CBS A360A
  • I am sure few of us are exactly the same. I have been adjusting supplements for a long time and think it is easy to get lost in the shuffle. How does one sort this out after being in knee deep forever?
 

SwanRonson

Senior Member
Messages
300
Location
Alabama
I've started using washout periods more often. Just cold-turkey all the supplements and see how I feel after about 3 days. Of course, some things take longer to wash out than others, like Vitamin D. Long half-life on that one.
 

btdt

Senior Member
Messages
161
Location
Ontario
I feel so dependent on supplements... but that is a very good idea one I think I need to try... I don't take vit D it makes me crazy and I can't sleep still don't know the reason for that one. thanks for you answer
 

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
I have +/+ MAO-A and take B2 what symptoms do you get from B2? I am taking maybe too many supplements at this point perhaps not sorting it out properly.
++MAO-A R297R and ++VDR Bsm

Could also be that my other mutations need the b2
Here are your homozygous mutations as indicated in your SNP gene table above (not including MTHFR):

  • VDR Bsm
  • MAO-A R297R
Here are your heterozygous mutations as indicated in your SNP gene table above (not including MTHFR):

  • COMT V158M
  • COMT H62H
  • MTRR A66G
  • MTRR K350A
  • CBS C699T
  • CBS A360A
  • I am sure few of us are exactly the same. I have been adjusting supplements for a long time and think it is easy to get lost in the shuffle. How does one sort this out after being in knee deep forever?

Hi btdt,

In the earlier days, I had to back up to the last combination that worked well, then built the stack. As I gained experience I learned what combinations of deficiency symptoms indicated which items. Done the way I do it, mainly only the one item stopping cell making/working are the only increased or recent symptoms. And on the one item, response can be minutes to hours. Then there is usually a confirming need for potassium on the 3rd or so day. Then a different set of symptoms shows up and in a couple of days (with practice) it becomes apparent what the next item needed is. It seems very counter intuitive to many but it works if the [person can learn to recognize the symptoms.

For instance, Certain symptoms will first indicate lack of MeCbl, l-methylfolate, AdoCbl, L-carnitine (4 way deadlock) . Then after these are going and stable the same symptoms but in a different grouping and it is copper deficiency and that does serious damage pretty quickly, or manganese or molybdenum or boron. Order is important. Then after all; the individuals then a broad set of symptoms and suddenly it is the current carnitine or methylfolate or copper form or ?

Another thing I have found in the last 6 months or so is that suddenly the Metafolin or Quatrefolic forms of methylfolate will suddenly stop working as well. I find that a couple of days on the other kind restores effectiveness. This has happened in form of copper, form of carnitine and form of methylfolate

Extracted from -
https://www.quora.com/Has-someone-u..._filter__=all&__nsrc__=1&__snid3__=1808215186


"Following are the groups of induced deficiency symptoms when starting with the Deadlock Quartet (AdoCbl, MeCbl, Metafolin, L-carnitine fumarate) with the foundation of all major and minor fats, vitamins and minerals

Version 2.42 11/06/2018 A work in process, incomplete, limited testing, people come in many variations, use at your own risk.

Copyright 2018, Frederick D. Davis, aka Fred Davis, aka Freddd, copied from original manuscript.

INDUCED DEFICIENCY SYMPTOMS FROM REFEEDING SYNDROME. This can follow 5 days of food deprivation, anorexia, or sort of a pinpoint starvation via vitamin or mineral or amino acid deficiencies. Whatever the “most needed” item is will often cause a strong response. The first usual notable symptoms occur on typically the third day of starting a previously insufficient nutrient with normally feeling or seeing the changes within minutes to hours. From MecBL I had over 30 symptoms respond in the first few hours with blow my socks off intensity with neurological startup and potassium deficiency on the 3rd day along with increasing folate deficiencies that took years to figure out. For instance it was noted in the 50s with injections of B12 with potassium deficiency (hypokalemia) as a side effect. It is dangerous and can be unpredictably fatal if not corrected and the cause is continued. When they say people are dying in Syria after they have been starved and given food, they are often suffering REFEEDING SYNDROME. When previous symptoms return that can also indicate a developing deficiency that started hindering cell formation.

Group 1 – Hypokalemia onset. Often called “detox”. Symptoms may appear with serum potassium as high as 4.3. May become dangerous if ignored. Considered “rare” with CyCbl (Cyanocobalamin) it is very common with MeCbl (methylcobalamin) and AdoCbl (adenosylcobalamin) and less so with HyCbl (Hydroxycobalamin).

There does not appear to be a clear order of onset. The order of onset varies widely from person to person but many appear consistent for each episode for any given person. There tend to be more and more intense symptoms as it gets worse. Some people have ended up in the ER because of not recognizing the symptoms.

IBS – Steady constipation, Nausea, Vomiting, Paralyzed Ileum,

Hard knots of muscle, Sudden muscle spasms when relaxed, Sudden muscle spasms when stretching , Sudden muscle spasms when kneeling, Sudden muscle spasms when reaching , Sudden muscle spasms when turning upper body to side, Tightening of muscles, spasms and excruciating pain in neck muscles, waking up screaming in pain from muscle spasms in legs. Muscle weakness

Abnormal heart rhythms (dysrhythmias), increased pulse rate, increased blood pressure, intense sudden dizzy spells correctable potentially in minutes with water with potassium gluconate for instance.

Emotional changes and/or instability, dermal or sub-dermal Itching, and if not treated potentially paralysis and death.

Group 2a - Both hypokalemia and l-methylfolate deficiency

IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS – Normal alternating with constipation

Group 2b – Either or both hypokalemia and l-methylfolate deficiency

Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue

Group 3 - Induced and/or Paradoxical Folate deficiency or insufficiency, partial methylation block to methyltrap on 1 or more internal triage levels. Frequently called “NAC DETOX” or “GLUTATHIONE DETOX”. Can be caused by folic acid, folinic acid and for some people, like me and quite a few others, excess vegetable folates. Further excess B1, B2, B3 and/or inositol can increase methylfolate deficiency symptoms. Methylfolate, MeCbl and just about anything else that starts healing can cause the folate deficiency symptoms.

These symptoms appear in 2 forms generally, the milder symptoms that start with partial methylation block and the more severe symptoms that come on as partial methylation block gets worse or very quickly with methyltrap onset.

Edema - An additional thing I would like to mention. I would never have found it without 5 years of watching the onset of paradoxical folate insufficiency and trying to catch it earlier and earlier and to figure out what was causing it and to reverse it. For me the onset order goes back to the day of onset now with edema and a sudden increase of weight. I noticed that within 2 hours of taking sufficient Metafolin I would have an increase in urine output.

Old symptoms returning in a general sense, a person may have had onset of these hundreds of time if they are on the borderline

Edema

Angular Cheilitis, Canker sores,

Skin rashes, increased acne, Increased itchy acne on scalp and face, Skin peeling around fingernails, Skin cracking and peeling at fingertips, painful cracks in the skin at the corner of fingernails at approximate right angles to nails, can take months to occur and it may be only non mood or neurological symptoms.

IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS – Normal alternating with constipation

Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue

Increased hypersensitive responses, Runny nose, Increased allergies, Increased Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, Increased asthma, rapidly increasing Generalized inflammation in body, Increased Inflammation pain in muscles, Increased Inflammation pain in joints, Achy muscles, Flu like symptoms

IBS – Steady diarrhea, IBS – Diarrhea alternating with normal, Stomach ache, Uneasy digestive tract,

Coated tongue, Depression, Less sociable, Impaired planning and logic, Brain fog, Low energy, Light headedness, Sluggishness, Increase irritability, Heart palpitations,

Longer term, very serious:

Loss of reflexes, Fevers, Forgetfulness, Confusion, Difficulty walking, Behavioral disorders, Dementia, Reduced sense of taste, bleeding easily.

High MCV, > 93, persistent and resistant to MeCbl and B6 and/P5P. The warning about too much folate causing subacute combined degeneration which kept folic acid to a max of 800 mcg for decades becasue large folate doses can lower MCV without MeCbl. There is a long history to this.

Group 4 - HyCbl onset, degraded MeCbl onset, MeCbl after photolytic breakdown onset.

Itchy bumps generally on scalp or face that develops to acne like lesions in a few days from start.

Group 5 – Copper deficiency after methylation startup has been achieved which often starts refeeding syndrome. 50mg or more of zinc has been indicated as a possible cause. 200-400 mg of zinc has been linked to copper deficiency. Excess supplemental or environmental manganese is linked to copper deficiency. Any or all symptoms can occur at “low normal range” copper tests. Well after all other observable copper deficiency symptoms showed up, a lower value as copper contibued to fall, MCV suddely went over 100 after it had fallen to

Demyelination of nerves similar to Sub Acute Combined Degeneration except that methylation and ATP startup has occurred, and copper deficiency favors damage to the upper motor neurons with perceived muscle weakness. Brittle nails. Sleep disorders. Mood (especially depression perhaps) and personality changes. Connective tissue breakdown. Spider veins. Varicose veins. Shrinking gums. Gum disease not responsive to usual measures. Unstoppable tooth decay on exposed areas without enamel. Low testosterone

Group 6 – Excess P-5-P, an active form of B6 that appears to drive hematocrit.

High hematocrit. The blood thickens and doesn’t pump as easily. Deep vein thrombosis can result. Other suspected circulatory hazards. Sometimes linked to high testosterone when lowering P-5-P might reduce it.

Group 7 – Excess B-vitamins affecting methylation

When taking the active B12/folate deadlock quartet (AdoCbl, MeCbl, Metafolin, L-methylfolate) Excess B1 - Thiamin, Excess B2 – Riboflavin, Excess B3 – Niacin and/or Excess Inositol can all produce an excess need for potassium to deal with Groups 1, 2a and 2b symptoms and/or produce an excess need for l-methylfolate to reduce groups 2a, 2b and 3 symptoms. A person might not be able to correct by taking potassium or folate and may need to reduce B1 <= 15mg/day, B2<= 10.2mg/day, B3 <=50mg, and inositol below an unknown quantity.

Group 8 – Boron insufficiency.

Arthritis swelling and pain, can be reduced by Boron

Contribution to fatigue, neurological effects

Formation of bacterial films

Runaway tooth decay,

vaginal bacterial films

Loss of calcium in bones and teeth

15 Surprising Benefits of Boron

Although all of the deficiency symptoms of boron are not fully understood, it is known that boron deficiency might result in the abnormal metabolism of calcium and magnesium. Some of the other symptoms include hyperthyroidism, sex hormone imbalance, osteoporosis, arthritis and neural malfunction.

Group 9 - Vanadium insufficiency

Deficiency of vanadium is poorly known or recognized. It affects tissue permeability like insulin.

vanadium insufficiency can cause (allow?) rising AIC

vanadium insufficiency allows the liver to make more cholesterol

Group 10 - Lithium insufficiency Non ionizing forms, small micronutrient doses

Lithium allows better permeability of B12 in nervous system membranes. Many people appear to have trouble affecting some B12 deficiency symptoms with B12 even

poorsleep

Group 11 - Iodine insufficiency, especially needed for those who don't eat iodized table salt and/or seafood.

Group 12 - L-carnitine XXXXX, That can be L-carnitine tartrate, L-C Fumarate, L-C freebase, ALCAR and others but usually works only one kind at a time.

neuromuscular pain, feeling of growing inflammation, fatigue, mood changes, sleep problems. These are quick occuring symptoms and they can sprwead to the complete 4 way deadlock over time.

It appears that for most people in this refeeding situation many may respond to only one form of l-carnitine, initially fumarate or ALCAR and sometimes also including a freebase form. However, as the deficienciencies change, the pathways appear to change and the carinitne that worked so well no longer does and the form is some entirely different one, like tartrate or some other variation. A person may need to trial half a dozen forms. A response is usually clear the first day or occasionally several days with micro doses and titration. And it can change based on what else is corrected."
 

GreenMachineX

Senior Member
Messages
362
@Freddd
I see in the list irritability listed as a folate deficiency symptom; is that typically the only place it shows up with these micronutrient deficiency symptoms or have you seen it also with b12 deficiency and others?
 

Freddd

Senior Member
Messages
5,184
Location
Salt Lake City
@Freddd
I see in the list irritability listed as a folate deficiency symptom; is that typically the only place it shows up with these micronutrient deficiency symptoms or have you seen it also with b12 deficiency and others?

@GreenMachineX,

This is one of the areas that is complicated to understand. Let's consider MeCbl. B12 deficiency causes cell making failure. However, MeCbl not being present, or ANY Cbl other than MeCbl is in place there is a failure to interact with l-methylfolate and hence lack of methylation and cell failure. So lack of MeCbl, lack of l-methylfolate each can cause similar symptoms, often skin lesions as first thing. So let us say a person (like me) is taking AdoCbl every day. I would have acne like lesions on face and scalp and spreading if continues and mood effects. AdoCbl in place of MeCbl can cause these methyltrap acne lesions. And there can be a sudden change to irritability. Anything that stops the methylation transaction but allows AdoCbl functioning in ATP cycle can cause mood changes (Jekyll and Hyde changes).

If the brand of MeCbl you are using has ceased to be effective, it can cause the problem. I experienced that with every brand I ever found that works ceases to after a while. And it may start up[ again with a different batch. For me and others, each about 3 months the type of l-methylfolate I take ceases to be effective and usually has broad symptoms. I found that changing from Metafolin to Quatrefolic or vice versa for qa few days corrected the problem every time for another 3 months. Anything that reduces methylation relative to AdoCbl and ATP and cause the irritability.

So that list has to be considered in order. Lack of copper stops the methylation and causes subacute combined degeneration It also causes a increase in MCV if low copper is doing it BUT ONLY if all things before it are functioning and adequate. So for me, the LAST methylfolate symptoms is high MCV for mwe, between 30 and 45 mg zero folate deficiency state occurs for me, Suddenly MCV is a 3 month record of how well my copper was be absorbed. The higher the MCV the lower the copper and mood is terrible. Copper does more serious damage faster than folate and MeCbl deficiencies. Many of the micro minerals can cause serious damage if lacking and all can affect mood.

My experience is that if I take the correct things I feel the difference in hours and generally have a period of increased potassium need 3 days later. For the micronutrients that for me has been 150-300mg of potassium daily. All the micronutrients came in the bottom tier and can happen in parallel. Low potassium can also be concurrent with other deficiency symptoms. I realized after starting copper I had to start ALL of the minerals and take some in separate doses. Iron and zinc can both or each end up blocking the others.
Good health.
 
Last edited:

GreenMachineX

Senior Member
Messages
362
@Freddd
Thanks.
Now a question on potassium supplementation, does it have to be potassium supplements like gluconate or something or would drinking bone broth which has 400mg per 8 oz per serving suffice?