A few questions re my grey areas

[Johnmac]

A few questions about improving my practice of the Freddd protocol, if anyone is feeling kindly (and knowledgeable).

The background is that I have done pretty well on the protocol since August, with a long list of improvements including 2 hours less sleep, good energy, brainfog gone, improved motor skills, higher temps, good libido.

There have also been 3 or 4 bad crashes, possibly due to LCF per se, and also (according to Fred) to LCF causing cells to suck up my potassium. Plus a 3-week bout of anxiety which is dissipating only now. That was seemingly sparked by LCF, but continued long after I cut doses right back. Pyroluria? (The pyroluria supps help.) Low NTs? (The Mood Cure aminos help.) or maybe (as I think Fred suggested) not enough K. Not sure in other words.

But overall, good progress - with a few remaining questions re what are, to me, grey areas:

• Daily, I am on roughly:

600mcg m-folate
2mg mB12
70mg LCF
+ AdoCbl 5 mg once a week

That seems to be giving me good progress (crashes aside). Should I be trying to raise doses?

• Whereas I hold the B12s against my inner lip till they dissolve, I just swallow the m-folate. Is that right?

• I haven't yet tried SAM-e, TMG, ALA or D ribose. Results have been gratifying without them. Funds are short: do I need to try them?

• What is the 50mg mB12 test dose for? Should we all try it?

• As I take a fair bit of potassium, should I also be taking calcium?

• Fred re m-folate: "Everybody who takes the small doses has terrible results and a rough time." Is "everybody" literal? I take small doses - 100-200 mcg m-folate 3-4 times a day - about 1:4 with mB12. I have had crashes, but only 4 symptoms ("less sociable", "impaired planning and logic", "low energy", "increased irritability") of the 41 PFD symptoms Fred lists. And virtually none of the body ones like diarrhea & chelitis. Have I missed PFD, or am I in denial?

• Freddd recommends 30-50mg AdbCbl once a week. I take 10mg once a week, but noticed no effect at all after the first 2 weeks (when it gave me one tired day). Do I need to try the 30-50mg dose, or does the absence of sfx on 10 suggest I'm okay with that?

• If not, do I put 30-50 mg behind my lip at once?

Thanks to all.

 

[Valentijn]

Whereas I hold the B12s against my inner lip till they dissolve, I just swallow the m-folate. Is that right?

Folate shouldn't have any problem being absorbed in the gut, and I've never heard of it being possible to absorb sublingually. So swallowing it makes sense.

Similarly, B12 can't be absorbed in the gums - but by extending the time in which it takes for the pill to dissolve and make its way to the gut, it might be better absorbed. I vaguely recall something showing that it's difficult to absorb large doses of B12 at once. Maybe someone else has more concrete info.

Fred re m-folate: "Everybody who takes the small doses has terrible results and a rough time." Is "everybody" literal?

No, he isn't correct. Freddd's statements are based on his personal experiences and observations. There's no published research substantiating many of his claims, including his claim that some brands and forms of B12 are inferior to others. Obviously a great many people do just fine on low doses of folate and folic acid, since it's in pretty much every multivitamin in existence, as well as fortified grains.

 

[xrunner]

There have also been 3 or 4 bad crashes

Hi @Johnmac
What's your diagnosis?
Merely out of my own experience with a very similar protocol done years ago and crashes. The protocol I was on didn't include any AdCbl but higher doses of Mb, the rest was the same. The supplements acted as "stimulants" on me so I had more energy but at a price of crashing later.

In essence, I'd put aside LCF, would not increase dosages, would not add any other supplement other than a multimineral and B complex (without folic acid) if you're not taking it already.
This may not be as the protocol suggests but we also need to be mindful of how we personally react to certain supplements which can differ from others.

I'd try this out for a few weeks. If you keep crashing, I'd try lower dosages more in line with the SMP; in the longer term recurring crashes may not be good for you (wasn't good for me anyhow).
As for potassium, I wouldn't know it's never been an issue for me whatever methylation protocol I was doing.

It would be helpful if you could test for S-adenosyl homocysteine (SAH) and S adenosyl methionine (SAM). Without having to do the more expensive methylation panel, the ratio of SAM to SAH would give you an idea of how your methyl cycle (see below) is actually doing, rather than relying on guesswork.
Best wishes

http://phoenixrising.me/treating-cf...esults-of-the-methylation-pathways-panel-2011
Ratio of SAM to SAH: A ratio less than about 4.5 represents low methylation capacity. Both the concentration of SAM and the ratio of concentrations of SAM to SAH are important in determining themethylation capacity, because they affect the rates of the methyltransferase reactions.

 

[ahmo]

@Johnmac I've reduced my Mfolate dosage by 2/3 since I began taking it sublingually. From 15mg to 5mg. I never put any credence to posts by people referring to taking it sublingually before I recently decided to try it. Aside from my happier adrenals, my costs have gone from about $60 to $20/month.

I don't feel anything particular from AdB12. I self-test, body has settled w/ 40mg, after trying 30 and 50, once weekly. Nor do I feel any lack of MB12 on those days when I don't take it, take only AdB12.

You might try an additional small dose of folate, 100-200mcg, and see if it does anything + or -....

Are you getting calcium from any food sources?

 

[Johnmac]

Thanks xrunner.

I've tried the SMP, and whilst it solved one specific problem I had at the time beautifully (severe thiol food reactions as a result of heavy mercury chelation), it didn't do anything else. Freddd's protocol has had dramatic and widespread effects - most of them good.

The big improvement began when my months of brainfog dissolved on beginning Freddd's back-up supplements (before beginning the DQs) - so I don't think I'll be abandong those any time soon.

LCF is integral to the Freddd protocol, so I shall stick with it, tho lower the dose and increase the K it seems to be causing to get sucked up.

I don't have a specific diagnosis - just a few dozen things that don't work right, from mood to skin.

All the best...

Hi @Johnmac
What's your diagnosis?
Merely out of my own experience with a very similar protocol done years ago and crashes. The protocol I was on didn't include any AdCbl but higher doses of Mb, the rest was the same. The supplements acted as "stimulants" on me so I had more energy but at a price of crashing later.

In essence, I'd put aside LCF, would not increase dosages, would not add any other supplement other than a multimineral and B complex (without folic acid) if you're not taking it already.
This may not be as the protocol suggests but we also need to be mindful of how we personally react to certain supplements which can differ from others.

I'd try this out for a few weeks. If you keep crashing, I'd try lower dosages more in line with the SMP; in the longer term recurring crashes may not be good for you (wasn't good for me anyhow).
As for potassium, I wouldn't know it's never been an issue for me whatever methylation protocol I was doing.

It would be helpful if you could test for S-adenosyl homocysteine (SAH) and S adenosyl methionine (SAM). Without having to do the more expensive methylation panel, the ratio of SAM to SAH would give you an idea of how your methyl cycle (see below) is actually doing, rather than relying on guesswork.
Best wishes

http://phoenixrising.me/treating-cf...esults-of-the-methylation-pathways-panel-2011
Ratio of SAM to SAH: A ratio less than about 4.5 represents low methylation capacity. Both the concentration of SAM and the ratio of concentrations of SAM to SAH are important in determining themethylation capacity, because they affect the rates of the methyltransferase reactions.

 

[Johnmac]

Hi again Ahmo.

Yep, others have said the sublingual works better. Personally I can't tell.

Why the additional small dose of folate?

(I might have no choice on that one: in Cambodia for 2 more weeks, & my mB12 is running out. The mB12 pills have already turned into a pink sludge in the humidity.)

Yes, lots of calcium: I make my own yogurt (lactobacillus plantarum), and eat gallons of it. It's replaced rice as my "filler" food: and being protein & fat instead of carb, is much better for me. No dairy reactions as I culture it for 24 hours & the bacteria seem to digest all the casein.)

I trust all is good with you,

John

@Johnmac I've reduced my Mfolate dosage by 2/3 since I began taking it sublingually. From 15mg to 5mg. I never put any credence to posts by people referring to taking it sublingually before I recently decided to try it. Aside from my happier adrenals, my costs have gone from about $60 to $20/month.

I don't feel anything particular from AdB12. I self-test, body has settled w/ 40mg, after trying 30 and 50, once weekly. Nor do I feel any lack of MB12 on those days when I don't take it, take only AdB12.

You might try an additional small dose of folate, 100-200mcg, and see if it does anything + or -....

Are you getting calcium from any food sources?

 

[ahmo]

That seems to be giving me good progress (crashes aside). Should I be trying to raise doses?...

Why the additional small dose of folate?

You might try an additional small dose of folate, 100-200mcg, and see if it does anything positive or negative.

 

[Johnmac]

Folate shouldn't have any problem being absorbed in the gut, and I've never heard of it being possible to absorb sublingually. So swallowing it makes sense.

Similarly, B12 can't be absorbed in the gums - but by extending the time in which it takes for the pill to dissolve and make its way to the gut, it might be better absorbed. I vaguely recall something showing that it's difficult to absorb large doses of B12 at once. Maybe someone else has more concrete info.

No, he isn't correct. Freddd's statements are based on his personal experiences and observations. There's no published research substantiating many of his claims, including his claim that some brands and forms of B12 are inferior to others. Obviously a great many people do just fine on low doses of folate and folic acid, since it's in pretty much every multivitamin in existence, as well as fortified grains.

Thanks V,

I don't know much about folate & folinic. Folinic didn't seem to harm me when I took it.

I tend to trust Fred's trials (results have often mirrored my own improvements on the FP), and to distrust the literature on clinical studies (having read Dr Ben Goldacre's devastating study on the subject).

I can't tell much difference between sublingual & swallowed m-folate, tho others I know say they can. I'll keep trialling that one.

Thanks & all the best.