Need help with understanding folate and folic acid

[Jodie28]

Hi everyone,

I'm new here and my English isn't great ( i am from the Netherlands) so i hope everyone can understand my writing. I am B12-deficient ( and use injections ) and I have read a lot on this forum the last few days, but i don't understand everything (yet). I'm very interested in folic acid/folate, because I seem to have a problem with it.
My reaction to folic acid is: dizzyness, nauseau, stomach pain and the muscles in my neck and shoulder get very painful and they can't loosen up anymore.
I'v noticed that I also respond on food with a lot of folate in the same way. Is this even possible?
And can I do something about it? Should I take methylfolaat or rather not and why?And which one must I take, L-methylfolaat, L-5-methylfolaat, is there a difference between them? Should I avoid food with a lot of folate?

Can someone tell me what to do (try)? Thank you so much voor reading and hopefully answering
( please keep your answers in simple English, I am working on my English).

Jodie

 

[caledonia]

Hi Jodie,

You probably have the MTHFR gene mutation which means you don't process "folic acid" well. Folic acid is an artificial vitamin. Some people on this forum have problems with vegetables because they contain folinic acid, which is another form of folate that may not convert well.

Your best bet would probably be to take methylfolate which is already converted for your body to use.

L-methylfolate = L-5-methyfolate = methylfolate (these are all the same)

 

[Jodie28]

Caledonia; Thank you for your answer! I wil try the methylfolate and see what will happen!
But I am curious: when I don't process folic/folinic acid wel, did the folic acid stay in my blood or..?Because I felt really sick... And did it take away any of my b12, because the symptoms of my deficiency also got worse...

Jodie

 

[ahmo]

Here are some links from Ben Lynch. . You might also read the comments in his threads, they’re often very illuminating. I've had to eliminate green veggies since they block methylfolate for me. I don't know how frequently this occurs.cheers, ahmo


http://mthfr.net/folic-acid-awareness-week-2014-want-awareness-here-you-go/2014/01/08/



http://mthfr.net/folic-acid-fortification-increase-in-mthfr-and-rise-in-autism/2012/05/11/



http://mthfr.net/l-methylfolate-methylfolate-5-mthf/2012/04/05/

 

[PointsNorth]

Jodie, you English is near perfect! I carry the MTHFR (homozygous) gene and I found supplementation with Methylfolate didn't seem to work. Maybe I will try again, making a mod or two.

PN

 

[Jodie28]

Thank you all for your answers! Ahmo, you don't eat green veggies at all anymore? Do you eat any other vegetables? The links from Ben Lynch are great! Thank you for that!

PointsNorth: Thank you for the compliment, but sometimes I am glad there is 'google translate.'
Methylfolate didn't do anything for you? Did you get more ill by taken it?

An other question I have is about b12. My mother is als deficient in B12 and is now taken high dosages of b12. The last few weeks she says hte tops of her fingers have a sort of tingling and it feels like there are frozen. Does anyone recognizes this and it is a lack of an other vitamine or can this be healing?

Me and my mother are already on some supplements, but we are very interested in Freds protocol. We are already on Mb12, Ab12, b-complex, Vitamin D, magnesium and zinc. Is there a specific order tot add the other supplements? Or should we just try them 1 by b1?

Sorry for all the questions. I've read a lot but can't find all the answers to them.

 

[ahmo]

@Jodie28 only veg I'm eating is carrots. The rest are high thiol (sulfur) or histamine, when they're not green. Vegetable folate is the folinic type, it doesn't work for me.

In addition to the many references in @caledonia signature, there's a compilation of info from Freddd's Protocol in mine. You'll find info re when to add things. It needs revision to reflect his more recent advice, to take AdB12 once a week, on a day w/o MB12, to enhance absorption of both. Suggests 30-50mg AdB12, I'm using 40mg.
Re mother's tingling: sometimes when nerves wake up, there can be tingling. But feeling frozen....

 

[Jodie28]

Thank you ahmo! That guide is a great thing and helps a lot to understand everthing! May I ask how you are doing on the protocol? Did you have improvement?

 

[ahmo]

Hi Jodie. I've had massive improvements, particularly in nervous system. My physical stamina lags behind, but that is really tolerable now because I'm no longer a nervous wreck. All the neurological symptoms have resolved, my arms remain weak, but rarely hurt, so typing is no problem; cognition near-normal, though easily fatigued; no more irritability, anxiety, over-heating, no more life-long insomnia. I told Fred early on that the protocol had returned me to the land of the living. I can participate in the forums and online learning, no longer feeling that life is unbearable or not worth living. I'm finding a lot of joy in my life.

 

[Jodie28]

Thats really great to hear ahmo, it gives me hope! For how long have you been on the protocol now?

I have another question: I am using the Basic B-complex from Thorne right now, but it has 5MTHF with no L for it. Is this wrong? I understand there MUST be an L for it?

 

[PeterPositive]

Thats really great to hear ahmo, it gives me hope! For how long have you been on the protocol now?

I have another question: I am using the Basic B-complex from Thorne right now, but it has 5MTHF with no L for it. Is this wrong? I understand there MUST be an L for it?

If it's this product: http://www.iherb.com/Thorne-Research-Basic-B-Complex-60-Veggie-Caps/18791
no worries. It's the right form of reduced folate.

cheers

 

[Jodie28]

Thank you Peterpositive, it is indeed that product! But there's a lot of b1,b2 and b3 in it. I've read that high dosages of those increase your need for methylfolate. Can I take the thorne b-complex twice a day, or is that to much?

 

[ahmo]

@Jodie, I started w/ the Thorne B complex, but found it too high. I switched to the following, which I divide into 2, take 1/2 AM/midday. The brand Fred's using is listed in the guide. I can't remember the brand, nor why I decided against it for me.

I"ve been in the protocol for 1.5 years. I started in March, but was too afraid to really increase my doses until about December, which is when the benefits really started happening.

 

[PeterPositive]

Thank you Peterpositive, it is indeed that product! But there's a lot of b1,b2 and b3 in it. I've read that high dosages of those increase your need for methylfolate. Can I take the thorne b-complex twice a day, or is that to much?

Hi, yes there's mainly a high dose of B1.
B2 is fine.
B3... could be a little high. Depends on who you ask

Twice a day could be too much, but there's also a subjective component. Some people seem to experience a sudden methyl-block with those dosages, and others like myself don't.

In any case it's probably ok to keep the B3 <= 100mg/day, unless there are specific requirements.

If you're seeing a doctor you should probably ask his opinion.

 

[Jodie28]

Ahmo, I am also a bit afraid to increase the dose, can a I ask how much methylb12, methylfolaat, and potassium your taking? I know everybody needs a different dose, but just as an example. I am really afraid to increase my methylfolaat because of my strong and wrong reaction with folic acid. I already take a high dosage of mb12, 40 mg a day.

 

[ahmo]

@Jodie28 I'm taking 5mg Mfolate sublingually (a few weeks ago it was 15mg orally!); 20mg B12, and K+ tending to be 1.5 gm, once or twice a day. Often these days I only need it once. It could be that I use slightly more because I do it by footbath rather than oral, but it's been so long since I've regularly drunk it, that I'm unsure. I no longer need to get up during the night for extra, as I did when I was actively increasing folate.

 

[Jodie28]

@ahmo Wow, How did you manage to reduce you Mfolate so much? Just bij taken it sublingually instead of orally?
K+ is potassium? And you can take it by footbad? I take it orally now, but my throat burns a bit from the tablets, that is not a nice feeling.
I take only 800 mcg methylfolaat a day, can there be a need for pottassium already, or is the need for potassium only with high dosage of methylfolaat?

 

[Papercrane]

@Jodie28 I'm taking 5mg Mfolate sublingually (a few weeks ago it was 15mg orally!); 20mg B12, and K+ tending to be 1.5 gm, once or twice a day. Often these days I only need it once. It could be that I use slightly more because I do it by footbath rather than oral, but it's been so long since I've regularly drunk it, that I'm unsure. I no longer need to get up during the night for extra, as I did when I was actively increasing folate.

Hey Ahmo,

Could you tell me what brands of Mb12, Mfolate and K you are using and how you do K by footbath?

I'm also curious to know - did you start with low folate or b12 showing on blood tests or were they normal?

Thanks

 

[ahmo]

@ahmo Wow, How did you manage to reduce you Mfolate so much? Just bij taken it sublingually instead of orally?
K+ is potassium? And you can take it by footbad? I take it orally now, but my throat burns a bit from the tablets, that is not a nice feeling.
I take only 800 mcg methylfolaat a day, can there be a need for pottassium already, or is the need for potassium only with high dosage of methylfolaat?

Yes! I'd read references to people taking it sublingually from time to time...never paid attention. But about a month ago I heeded a similar statement from Stridor, and tried it. I was then immediately faced with the problem of too much methylfolate, had to decrease it radically. the high methylation pushed me again into heightened detos, which I'm thankfully well preparfed to deal with, have been doing so for a year. I went from 15mg to 8mg, but had to continue decreasing to 5mg to be comfortable, stop adrenal stress symptoms.

I'd discovered earlier this year that excess folate created adrenal stress. At that time I found I had to eliminate all green veggies. Possibly common to many w/ MTHFR, the vegetable form of folate, folinic I believe, was blocking folate, causing me to coninut needing to increase. I'd gotten up to 25mg when it was obvious my adrenals were stressed. that's when I decreased to 15mg. I no longer eat any green veggies. Tried a small amount of sprouts a week ago, body not happy.

I use Potassium (yes, K+) Gluconate powder. I've also tried Potass Chloride powder, found it awful for drinking, didn't save me any money, resumed Gluconate powder (NOW brand, iherb)

You could easily need K+ already. My understanding is that once the cells start the rapid (reproducing? repair?...) that folate stimulates, the body needs more K+. For me symptoms were initially heavy heartbeats, rapid heart, breathlessness, anxiety-type, restlessness... I strongly recommend learning self-testing. this is how I determine all my doses, by asking my body. I've been doing it since I got sick, so I've had a long time to develop trust in it. Good short vid linked below.

Hey Ahmo,

Could you tell me what brands of Mb12, Mfolate and K you are using and how you do K by footbath?

I'm also curious to know - did you start with low folate or b12 showing on blood tests or were they normal?

Thanks

The reason I don't bother w/ pathology tests is that they've never indicated the true state of my body, symptoms. I tested for folate, B12 yearly, showed nothing. I started Freddd's Protocol after I'd been on GAPS diet long enough to be able to think and focus. Next step methylation.

There are several brands of folate on iherb's 5-MTHF page. some tablets, some capsules. I like the 1000mcg tablets when increasing doses, as they can easily be split into 2 or 4. For maintenance I use Thorne's 5mg capsules. Also Life Extensions 1000mcg (1mg) caps.

If you click on my avatar, you'll get to a blog entry I did re footbaths. They started as a simple way to use bicarb for detox, but I then began adding all my powdered supps to it. I know that the doses of other things I put into my FB are the same as if I was taking them orally, including my evening folate. So I guess that the same goes for my K+, which I love no longer drinking. Now tending to be 1Tb, but frequently only once a day, instead of twice. Something's getting better.


Self-testing http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Ex59wHLk3Q0

Good written description of simple self-testing: http://www.goodhealthinfo.net/herbalists/muscle_testing.htm

 

[Papercrane]

Yes! I'd read references to people taking it sublingually from time to time...never paid attention. But about a month ago I heeded a similar statement from Stridor, and tried it. I was then immediately faced with the problem of too much methylfolate, had to decrease it radically. the high methylation pushed me again into heightened detos, which I'm thankfully well preparfed to deal with, have been doing so for a year. I went from 15mg to 8mg, but had to continue decreasing to 5mg to be comfortable, stop adrenal stress symptoms.

I'd discovered earlier this year that excess folate created adrenal stress. At that time I found I had to eliminate all green veggies. Possibly common to many w/ MTHFR, the vegetable form of folate, folinic I believe, was blocking folate, causing me to coninut needing to increase. I'd gotten up to 25mg when it was obvious my adrenals were stressed. that's when I decreased to 15mg. I no longer eat any green veggies. Tried a small amount of sprouts a week ago, body not happy.

I use Potassium (yes, K+) Gluconate powder. I've also tried Potass Chloride powder, found it awful for drinking, didn't save me any money, resumed Gluconate powder (NOW brand, iherb)

You could easily need K+ already. My understanding is that once the cells start the rapid (reproducing? repair?...) that folate stimulates, the body needs more K+. For me symptoms were initially heavy heartbeats, rapid heart, breathlessness, anxiety-type, restlessness... I strongly recommend learning self-testing. this is how I determine all my doses, by asking my body. I've been doing it since I got sick, so I've had a long time to develop trust in it. Good short vid linked below.



The reason I don't bother w/ pathology tests is that they've never indicated the true state of my body, symptoms. I tested for folate, B12 yearly, showed nothing. I started Freddd's Protocol after I'd been on GAPS diet long enough to be able to think and focus. Next step methylation.

There are several brands of folate on iherb's 5-MTHF page. some tablets, some capsules. I like the 1000mcg tablets when increasing doses, as they can easily be split into 2 or 4. For maintenance I use Thorne's 5mg capsules. Also Life Extensions 1000mcg (1mg) caps.

If you click on my avatar, you'll get to a blog entry I did re footbaths. They started as a simple way to use bicarb for detox, but I then began adding all my powdered supps to it. I know that the doses of other things I put into my FB are the same as if I was taking them orally, including my evening folate. So I guess that the same goes for my K+, which I love no longer drinking. Now tending to be 1Tb, but frequently only once a day, instead of twice. Something's getting better.


Self-testing http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Ex59wHLk3Q0

Good written description of simple self-testing: http://www.goodhealthinfo.net/herbalists/muscle_testing.htm

Thanks Ahmo!
(And special hellos because you are a fellow Aussie

This is great info. I Was also wondering about your Mb12. You mentioned you take 20mgs a day. Do you take it sublingually and if so are you using the country life brand Or possibly chowing down on a whole container or life extensions per day

Much gratitude