Under-Methylator vs Over-Methylator..?

[ebethc]

How do you know if you're an under-methylator or an over-methylator?

thanks

 

[PeterPositive]

An inexpensive test could be checking serum homocysteine.
You will likely find low levels ( e.g. < 6 ) for over-methylators and higher levels ( e.g. > 10 ) for under-methylators, like myself.

A better way would be to run a methylation panel, which is quite expensive (300 bucks) but can provide lots of details like the state of reduced glutathione, Sam-e, RBC folate etc...

Cheers

 

[ebethc]

My homocysteine results are right in the middle of the range! Where do I get a methylation panel? My doc recommended the Nutraval test

 

[PeterPositive]

My homocysteine results are right in the middle of the range! Where do I get a methylation panel? My doc recommended the Nutraval test

I did the methylation panel in the Netherlands -> http://www.europeanlaboratory.nl/
They are also present in the US -> http://www.hdri-usa.com/

cheers

 

[ahmo]

Here is how Freddd responds to this issue, over-under-methylation:

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...on-and-precursers-laymans-version.1740/page-2
Freddd: My experience prompts me to use a different terminology from under and over methylators. These are all genetic tendencies at best. In actual practice I have found that people are very often “depleted methylators” or maybe in different terminology “blocked methylators” regardless of what their genetic tendencies theoretically are. Many of these assumptions come from a backround of tests performed on people that are chronically deficient of active folate and active b12s. I had approximately equal numbers of active b12/folate deficiency symptoms from BOTH lists of “under” and “over” methylators. To this day I can’t tell you what I actually am in that schema as it just doesn’t make sense in terms of what was wrong and what fixed it. Active b12s with Metafolin, as many active b-complex components as possible, basic cofactors and selected critical cofactors all played their part in fixing my symptoms from BOTH lists allowing my body to be healthy and normalized. Personally I thionk way to much attention is applied to the over/under situation, both of which may be artifacts of inactive pseudo vitamins and how people respond to those....

I have included the characteristics as listed on several sites of under and over methylators. They BOTH include depression which seems contradictory to me. Here is a collection of symtoms, signs and chracteristics of overmethylators and undermethylators from several sources. A few specific items are footnoted. I found the specific interesting. The consensus as to which is what is a bit fuzzy. Some things like depression show up on both lists according to different people. Many of the symptoms on BOTH lists are active b12 and folate deficiency symptoms. As far as response to b12 and folates are concerned, I’m just including what the sources....

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...on-and-precursers-laymans-version.1740/page-2

Here's something from Ben Lynch. There's a MTHFR 90"vid on the home page.

http://mthfr.net/overmethylation-and-undermethylation-case-study/2012/06/27/

 

[PeterPositive]

I agree with what Freddd says. The way in which symptoms of over-methylation / under-methylation are described even by Dr. Lynch seem a bit of a simplification.

Example: Dr.Lynch usually describes overmethylation symptoms as the state of extra agitation, anxiety, edgy feeling etc... caused by excessive intake of methyl-folate and methyl-B12, which can be compensated via niacin.

It's an interesting theory and it's based on strong empirical evidence that mehtyl supplements and niacin can balance each other out until a proper equilibrium is found. Dr Lynch has described many case studies of this phenomenon.

What I don't find very convincing is that this sort of reactions (anxiety, wired feeling etc...) are really correlated to an excessive spinning of the methylation cycle. Looking at my experience and that of folks in this board, it seems that most people with low methylation have these reaction to methyl groups even though their methylation is largely impaired.

In fact, most undermethylators' nervous system can easily go bananas if they don't carefully titrate their metyhl supplements.

In my case I have had all of those problems when trying to increase my dosages of folate and B12, but my blood work still showed high homocysteine and my methylation panel showed total insufficiency in all departments (low glutathione, sam-e, rbc folate etc...)

So I don't think "overmethylation" is a proper label to attach to those symptoms. Additionally real overmethylators, supposedly those with low homocysteine (e.g. < 5), don't necessarily have those kind of symptoms either.

What do you think?

 

[ebethc]

I don't feel like I'm over or under methylated, and the symptoms of each are present for me... And there are symptoms from each that are wayyyyy wrong for me.. So the Under vs Over thing just doesn't resonate...

I think that my homocysteine is about 6 or 7... Right in the middle of the range. My doc says that she thinks chronic, low grade ammonia poisoning has been causing the biggest problems, so that's what we're addressing first. My chief complaints (in order) brain fog, joint pain, fatigue, frequent colds/flus, some IBS symptoms..

These are the things on my mind right now after reading alot today.. Let me know if you have any thoughts:
1. I have a question about SAM-e that maybe you can answer... I've been reading about Over vs Under today, and there's a lot of discussion re SAM-e as a solution.. I've tried SAM-e and it didn't work for me... It worked fairly well at first (~50%) then sputtered out... Why?? Do you have to fix CBS (ammonia) before taking any methyls??

2. I've had a very bad week due to all the particulate matter in the air.. high pollution (for me, the high end of "Good/Green" starts getting difficult) and high pollen & mold counts... I'm not allergic (according to my allergy tests) but my doc said that any particulate matter irritates my sinuses/throat/lungs/eyes.. Could this be a Mast Cell/Histamine problem? My constant, unexplained inflammation seems to indicate this as well, but that's not a lot to go on.. I think that CBS could possible clear histamine intolerances... I read a post today that said so.. Hopefully this is true because it would be another indication that my doc and me are on the right track

thanks

 

[ahmo]

Do you have to fix CBS (ammonia) before taking any methyls??

Yes. Altho 'fix' is maybe the wrong word, at least address, compensate for CBS issues. Have a look at the thread I'm linking. You'll see my former and current regimen for addressing ammonia issues. Also, are you eating low thiol? I see you've got ++ CBS....

Some mast cell resources. I posted you the Dr. T vid yesterday, yes?? You can find a big library of his work at mastcellmaster.com.

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/new-inexpensive-cbs-ammonia-fix.31835/

http://mastcellmaster.com/documents/2014-04/TCT-Research-Overview-3-12-14.pdf 92 pg presentation 2014

http://www.histamine-intolerance.info/

http://www.smartgreenscans.nl/hista...ll-Activation-cascade-of-symptoms-225x300.jpg
http://livingnetwork.co.za/chelationnetwork/food/high-sulfur-sulphur-food-list/

 

[ebethc]

@ahmo - yes, I read some of the info re mast cell yesterday, but I find it overwhelming so I'm going to talk to my doctor about it... Alot of the symptoms are very generic... You could find them on a list of symptoms for "candida" or a "GFCF" diet website, and so on... I suspect that I may have a histimine problem, but I don't know how to definitively say that I do, so I'll ask my doctor..

thanks

 

[ahmo]

Yes, lot's of overlap. I wouldn't have known mine were mast cell except for a few distinct symptoms. There's a mast cell forum here, you might have a scroll through it. That's what sent me down the path of inquiry. It turned out that the small ulcer-like sores I had in nostrils, ears, and blood blisters in mouth are mast cell. Also waxy discharge, sometimes sprayed over surface of ear. When adrenals calmed, mast cell sx resolved. Now when the recur, it's time to detox and help adrenals.

 

[ebethc]

@ahmo - thanks for the info. I'll look at it when I'm feeling better.. I think my anti-ammonia protocol is making me sick, maybe I'll take a break from it tomorrow.

thanks

 

[ahmo]

@PeterPositive I was thinking specifically of you when I posted this new-to-me vid. I've only watched 10-15 min, but he gets right into homocysteine. I thought I might finally begin to understand it.

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...d-epigenetics-in-brain-disorders-video.32634/

 

[PeterPositive]

@PeterPositive I was thinking specifically of you when I posted this new-to-me vid. I've only watched 10-15 min, but he gets right into homocysteine. I thought I might finally begin to understand it.

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...d-epigenetics-in-brain-disorders-video.32634/

Thanks
I will watch it in the next days.