The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

[jepps]

Very interesting link, a summary of PHD, and above is a summary of the member Duck, 26.8.14 concerning SCFA´s, Glycolysis and candida:

Glucose obviously feeds candida as well however I have not seen evidence that it impairs immunity against candida such as ketones. Glucose therefore appears to be the lesser of two evils in this case when compared to ketones. From a blood point of view it’s impossible to eliminate glucose anyways. Ketogenic diets and many Paleo diets therefore in the long term are counter-productive. Starch and specifically resistant starch is necessary to feed the good guys which are your primary defense against candida.

http://chriskresser.com/is-a-low-carb-diet-ruining-your-health

According to Dr. Jaminet, for neurological issues (with BBB) we should eat ketogene with 200 carbs daily with lower amount of starches and much MCT-fats (because bacterias and viruses are in the brain, and ketogene starves bacterias and viruses), and for gut issues and pathogenes (Leaky Gut, candida and parasites) we should eat more carbs, about 400-600 carb cal. daily. The carbs come primarly from tubers or rice.

Maybe it is a way, to eat low carb to diminish bacterias and viruses in the brain, and then start RS, fibres and probiotics/fermented nutrition to nourish the gut bacterias and to build up SCFA, which fights candida and parasites, and builds up immunity (and maybe other natural ways to fight candida+parasites), and then we can consume as much carbs, as Paul Jaminet and Chris Kresser recommend. I hope so.

 

[BadBadBear]

I've read that you should take them with RS because they attach to the RS and get a safe ride through the stomach.

I've also read that that means that you're essentially getting a higher dose than you would otherwise which means you might need to work up slowly.

Thanks - I took PS + probios last night as well as consumed some kava tea before bed to try dealing with some adrenalization that happens at night.

I slept very soundly for a change, but wow, did I have *crazy* dreams. I woke up very confused as to whether I should still be trying to slay a wolf with my bare hands.

 

[Sasha]

I woke up very confused as to whether I should still be trying to slay a wolf with my bare hands.

You're not called BadBadBear for nothing, then!

 

[jepps]

Here is the anwer to my question, what to to, when my gut reacts badly to to much carbs:

http://chriskresser.com/is-a-low-carb-diet-ruining-your-health

Gut Health
One of the less discussed downsides of a very low carbohydrate diet over the long run is the potential for alteration of the gut flora. Chris recently covered this issue in a podcast with Jeff Leach, where they discussed evidence that a very low carb diet can lead to gut dysbiosis and a reduction in the diversity of the gut flora. A lot of the information on this topic is new and not fully understood, but it’s reasonable to believe that when you avoid carbs, you’re also avoiding important prebiotics (i.e. food for your gut flora) like soluble fiber and resistant starch.

These prebiotics are essential for promoting the growth of beneficial gut flora. Without them, your beneficial flora can’t produce as much gut-healing substances like butyrate and other short chain fatty acids, and your microbiome composition may even shift in an undesirable direction. And as Chris would say, you’re only as healthy as your gut is: an unhealthy gut contributes to everything from obesity and diabetes, to digestive illness, to autoimmune disease, to skin disorders.

Those who are doing very low carbohydrate diets, and who simply can’t increase their starch intake for whatever reason, should use prebiotic supplements such as resistant starch-rich unmodified potato starch or FOS powder. However, these products must be incorporated slowly into your supplement regimen, as you can experience severe gas and bloating if too many prebiotics are taken all at once, or if there is existing gut dysbiosis or bacterial overgrowth. In this case, it would be wise to work with someone who can help you get the prebiotics you need while on a very low carbohydrate or ketogenic diet to protect the health of your gut microbiota

So it may be the right way to build up the gut with this supplements, and while the gut is healing, one is better able to digest starches.

 

[Vegas]

Count me in as having mild gout symptoms w/ PS. I have never had gout before, but my mom used to get it and I am all too familiar with the symptoms... At first it was pain in the arch of my foot for the last week, then last night I had shooting pains in the big toe. Earlier in the evening we had dinner out (I had steak and a margarita, I guess proverbially shoot myself in the foot there). The pain in the big toe quieted down after a bit, thankfully.

I don't know if this means my protein digestion is finally improving from PS and that is unmasking gout, or if something else is going on that is causing it. I do have a feeling it's related to the PS, though.

I am currently taking ~3 TBSP per day spread into 3 doses, plus consuming ~1 TBSP daily of Dandy Blend which has chicory and dandelion.

The gout symptoms, I think, are noteworthy. To me, the reproducibility of these symptoms when taking certain prebiotics is compelling circumstantial evidence that this may be an effective therapy. There is certainly a mechanism by which resistant starch could do this. If the suppression of the purine metabolism in ME/CFS is designed to limit the production of inflammatory molecules and reactive oxygen and nitrogen species, I think this implies that the prebiotics and their effects on the microbiota have likely reduced the production of inflammatory mediators and your intrinsic ability to suppress the consequences of these free radicals has improved.

So let's say we increased your purine metabolism, or at least the activity of xanthine oxidases which generates uric acid. One absolute consequence would be the increased production of superoxide and peroxynitrite. An increase in this part of the metabolism likely signifies that there is an increase in the ability to suppress superoxide radicals and peroxynitrite simply because ONOO levels will inhibit this reaction. Put another way, as peroxynitrite levels rise this down-regulates xanthine oxidase activity and all the byproducts of this reaction, including uric acid, are suppressed. This serves to reduce the demands on the entire antioxidant network and the dehydrogenase enzymes, in particular. The increased activity of XO would seemingly suggest that the prebiotics have reduced ONOO levels.

The mechanism by which glyconutrients or resistant carbohydrates could result in an increase in uric acid likely involves the provision of SCFA's, particularly butyrate, where it is needed. Increases in butyrate would seemingly have the ability to influence every single consequences of enhanced purine metabolism that comes to mind. In fact, I think it perfectly fits this equation. I think it is also notable that while butyrate is taken up by the colonocytes, it is also principally utilized in the liver. It is certainly not coincidental that in humans, xanthine oxidase, which creates uric acid, is chiefly and almost exclusively expressed in the liver and intestinal tract.

I too never experienced gout symptoms until I started experimenting with certain prebiotics and to a lesser extent some of the anaerobes I fermented. Last week i developed arthritic symptoms in my shoulder, which was unprecedented. Fortunately, it was very short-lived, unlike a true osteoarthritic condition, but these symptoms have compelled me to go slow. I've also noticed that my tolerance to caffeine (a methyl xanthine) has steadily risen over the last six months. This is very possibly an indication of improvement in this particular metabolic process as caffeine can reduce the activity of xanthine oxidase, thus its effects have become less noticeable.

I have noted some warning signs that might precede what appears to be an increase in uric acid levels. I have days when my hands get very cold, and days when a little bit of caffeine has a very pronounced diuretic effect. With uric acid primarily excreted in urine, I think this is a compensatory measure. I think it would be prudent to temporarily back off the prebiotics a bit when symptoms of gout appear.

I'm using small doses of PS + small doses of chitin-glucan.

 

[jepps]

Does anybody know, whether PS counts for my carb intake? PS has app. 80% RS, and the rest could count for digestible starch?

 

[jepps]

I found the answer here:

http://www.dietdoctor.com/potato-starch-lchf-resistant-starch

Raw potato starch is about 80% starch / 20% moisture and about 75% of that starch is resistant.

so about 5 % of the 80% must be digestible starch.

 

[Asklipia]

I found the answer here:
http://www.dietdoctor.com/potato-starch-lchf-resistant-starch
so about 5 % of the 80% must be digestible starch.

Here it says there is in fact no digestible starch in raw PS :http://freetheanimal.com/2013/12/resistant-primer-newbies.html#comment-548820

 

[jepps]

Here it says there is in fact no digestible starch in raw PS :http://freetheanimal.com/2013/12/resistant-primer-newbies.html#comment-548820

You´re right, Paul Jaminet writes the same:

http://perfecthealthdiet.com/2014/05/qa-fat-head-readers/

Big fan of PHD and have been incorporating resistant starch particularly in the form of 4 Tbl of Bob’s Red Mill Unmodified Potato starch. Question: Give the nutritional breakdown of 4 Tbl of Potato Starch (160 calories/40 grams of carbohydrate): do does amounts contribute to the PHD minimum levels of starch 400-600 calories per day if this form of starch bypasses digestion in the stomach and small intestine and instead is largely digested by gut bacteria in the large intestine/colon? Or is it recommended to eat some starch that is not “resistant”? If so, how much of “resistant” and Non-resistant starch should be consumed or does it not matter?”

No, resistant starch does not count as a carbohydrate source. It is a short-chain fatty acid source providing about 1 to 1.5 calories fatty acids per gram. It doesn’t provide any carbohydrates. Of course, it is always accompanied by digestible starch in real foods. Those count as carbohydrates.

 

[BadBadBear]

@jepps, thanks for digging into that. I was curious about the carb factor, too.

I am getting ready to try larch fiber, does anyone know the recommended dose?

I'd like to try decreasing the PS and see if the odd pain/stiffness in my left foot improves. I thought about cutting down to 1 TBSP PS per day, adding larch, and maybe some pectin fiber as well. I am using some psyllium fiber, too. I never used to tolerate it (it flared my IBS-C terribly) but it seems to be OK in small doses now.

Would checking uric acid during my next blood test be useful to see if PS is causing gouty issues?

 

[jepps]

BadBadBear, I´m not yet a believer, because my (feminine) logic says, that when raw potatoe starch consists of 80% carbs, and app. 60-75% is RS, the rest must be not resistent, and ergo digestible starch

I take 3 tsp LAG daily for 1 month, I began with 1 tsp for one week, then 3 tsp. It´s a good idea to cut down PS, to see, what LAG effects.

 

[BadBadBear]

Could the rest of the matter be indigestible matter or something?? I suppose I could take some in the AM with water and see what BGL does. That should be the tell-tale sign of carb content.

I cut down my PS by 1/2 last night and had almost no pain in my foot this morning. It seems almost too good to be true. I guess I am a (feminine) skeptic, too. I am trying 1/2 TBSP PS + 1/2 TBSP psyllium again tonight.

I still had crazy dreams on the lesser PS dosage, so I'm going to assume it's working...

 

[Gemma]

The interplay between the receptors stimulated by vitamin D and active folate is quite fascinating, I won't bore you with the details, but, UV exposure stimulates the synthesis of water-soluble vitamin D, but at the same time it oxidizes many forms of folate in blood plasma. You can control the biosynthesis of Vitamin D by limiting your UVB exposure. For example, I find that when I travel to the subtropics in the summer, I have to limit exposure to the sun secondary to the massive increase in vitamin D synthesis, which precipitates an excessive immune response. One of the ways this is immune response is limited is by the synthesis of melanin, which of course adds pigmentation and reduces the synthesis of vitamin D. There are actually many other countermeasures that serve to inhibit an excessive immune response. One of these is actually the release of histamine as this has been found to induce the biosynthesis of melanin. We also accumulate phenolic compounds, in part because the organisms that degrade these are involved in maintaining the intestinal epithelium. A primarily product of bacterial metabolism of phenols is melanin; in effect our microbes also seemingly try to protect us from excessive immune stimulation as well as they cannot live without us.

As I have discussed before, the colon is a net producer of folate and those bacterial organisms that are highly sensitive to oxygen are the best producers of MTHF. Some have asserted that this relatively small quantity of folate is a minor consequence to health, but I think the preserved folate transport system in the colon and the distinct response of different forms of folates at different receptor sites suggests otherwise.

In addition to the fact that highly-oxidizing environmental conditions limit the growth of these folate synthesizers, the conditions also serve to limit the efficiency of the microbial synthesis and the interconversion--again, as I see it, the conditions serve to limit the immune response, I think this is inescapable. Similarly, it is clear that the microbial and human relationship is far more complex and critical that previously believed.

Vegas, this is the most ineteresting thing I have read here. And you said: "As I have discussed before" which means there is something more...

I have nothing to add to this, and I do not intend to.

I wish good health to everybody.

 

[jepps]

Could the rest of the matter be indigestible matter or something??
I still had crazy dreams on the lesser PS dosage, so I'm going to assume it's working...

When you have crazy dreams, the PS works, Asklipia postet the very interesting link to Heisenburg´s blog:http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...t-the-key-weve-been-looking-for.26976/page-94 Post 1873, you know it certainly.

The rest of PS must be in my opinion digestible.

Here is something concerning LAG:
http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art16104.asp

GlucoseGlucose is the basic unit of sugar, and is the result of the breakdown of just about every carb you eat. When you take blood sugar tests, you are testing the amount of glucose in your blood. So if you're like 99% of the population, you are getting quite enough glucose in your system, just from the few carbs you consume.

Galactose
Galactose is one of the two components oflactose, or milk sugar. Lactose is actually a combination of galactose and glucose that your body breaks down into its component parts. So if you get enough dairy and milk products each day, you're getting plenty of galactose. If you're lactose intolerant, galactose is also found in cranberries, blackberries, grapes, apples and figs. For vegetables, it's in brussels sprouts, broccoli, cauliflower, eggplant, rhubarb and asparagus.

Now on to the less common sugars. Note that your body iscapableof creating these remaining 6 sugars by using the above 2 as raw materials, but it is a complex process. It is much easier for your body if you simply feed it those sugars in their native forms!

and something abount the right amounts of Sugars:
http://www.bellaonline.com/articles/art16105.asp

GlucoseEvery carb you eat breaks down into glucose. So as long as you're eating any carbs at all, you are ending up with glucose in your system. Recommendations for daily glucose intake is usually measured in carb intake for that reason. You eat carbs, your body turns them into glucose. The recommendations are in the 50g carbs/day range for normal daily maintenance.

Galactose
Galactose is found in many fruits and berries as well as dairy products. Mentions of galactose even in sugar-savvy blends seems to be quite low, in the 1g/day range.

Fucose
Fucose is found in mushrooms and kelp. Many seaweed / kelp blends focus on fucose. Based on the many seaweed capsules on the market, suggested intake is 2g/day.

Mannose
Mannose is found veggies and mushrooms. A blend I found to help ward offUrinary Tract Infectionhas you taking 10g/day of Mannose to keep intestines clean.

N-Acetyl-Galactosamine
N-acetyl-galactosamine is found in bovine cartilage and shark cartilage. You can buyShark Cartilageat just about any vitamin store. Average suggested intake seems to be in the 1g/day range.

N-Acetyl-Glucosamine
N-acetyl-glucosamine is found naturally in shiitake mushrooms, bovine cartilage and shark cartilage. Again, as with N-acetyl-galactosamine, suggested intake is in the 1g/day range.

N-Acetyl-Neuraminic Acid
N-Acetyl-Neuraminic is found in whey protein isolate and eggs. Whey protein is well known to fitness buffs. Based on the many fitness pages recommending daily intake guidelines for whey, you should have 4g/day of N-acetyl-neuraminic acid.

Xylose
Xylose is found in berries and fruits. Xylose is actually found in a lot of products already as a non-sucrose sweetener, so most people don't need extra xylose. However, capsules I researched had an average of 10g/day dosage. Often you'll get that as a "sweetener" in some other vitamin or food you have eaten during the day anyway.

Note that in addition to these sugars, we also need around 30g/day of fiber, which is a different type of carbohydrate.

I wonder, whether the dosage of LAG counts for daily sugar dose, and therefore for daily carb dosage. Potentially yes, because is sugar, which we shall eat whith Nutrition, and it´s a glyconutrient.

 

[Sasha]

I don't have vivid dreams (or dreams at all) with the RS. Does that mean something?

 

[maddietod]

I'm looking for help. I react to PS no matter how I treat it, and plantain and banana flours make me nauseous. I've gained 10 pounds using lentils and parboiled rice as RS sources, and I don't know how to best support my gut now that I've mostly given these up. Unfortunately, I can only maintain my weight on a low carb diet.

I've been taking prescript-assist and probiotic 3 for months, and I had been using the RS as a 'carrier' to the gut. I'm getting some seasonal allergies just now, but my wheat allergy seems to have disappeared. I don't have brain fog, my memory has improved somewhat, and I'm interested in socializing(!).

I have but am not taking Larix (Eclectic) - how much would I work up to?

My breakfast is 1c cooked rolled oats (not instant) + 1T chia seeds + 2T ground flax. When I eat rice, it's cooked-cooled-warmed parboiled.

How can I (1) make sure the probiotics get to my gut, and (2) support their colonizing?

 

[Dreambirdie]

@madietodd QUESTIONS: Are you still using any of the Wahl's dietary recommendations along with the RS? Or have you completely dropped the Wahl's diet?

What form does Larix come in? I thought it was used as an anti-viral....?

And also what is PS...that everyone keeps referring to? I don't want to have to search this really long thread to find out.

 

[jepps]

I don't have vivid dreams (or dreams at all) with the RS. Does that mean something?

I had vivid dreams in the beginning, then they stopped. But my stool showed no lactos and bacteries species and no bifidos before beginning RS+fibres, and after taking RS+fibres for 3 weeks the stool test shows normal levels of lactos and bacteries species, but no bifidos. Maybe candida eats the bifidos because candida and blastocystes show very high level.
So you must not have vivid dreams, to see, if RS works.

The lactos+bacteries did not increase during taking psyllium+probiotics, but they increase since I take RS+LAG+Inulin+FOS+pectine.

 

[Dreambirdie]

I dipped my toe in the probiotic water yesterday and took 1/4 of a capsule of L. Plantarum, mixed in with the RS/psyllium/Amazing Grass.

What is Amazing Grass? and why did you choose L Plantarum?

 

[maddietod]

@madietodd QUESTIONS: Are you still using any of the Wahl's dietary recommendations along with the RS? Or have you completely dropped the Wahl's diet?

What form does Larix come in? I thought it was used as an anti-viral....?

And also what is PS...that everyone keeps referring to? I don't want to have to search this really long thread to find out.

PS is potato starch. I stopped Wahl's diet when I started resistant starch because I can only juggle one ball at a time.
Larix is a trademark name for Eclectic Institute's larch. It's a powder.