Active B12 Protocol Basics

[Moshi]

Ahmo, once again, I really appreciate all your good advice and info! Thank You!!
- will start using AdCbl once week starting next week, interesting to see if there's any difference...
- may quit the NADH but need to research it more first, I only take a small amount 5mg Enada every other day...
- Will be more cautious about NAC & glutathione from now on, read labels carefully!
- Will increase MeFolate slowly....perhaps aiming to use about 6mg / day in about two weeks from now...
- will increase K, I guess I'm only taking half of what you're taking....I'm at 800mg-1g/day.....
- when I increased MeCbl recently I got a histamibe response exactly like yours with swollen red itchy eyes....only it was the increased MeCbl triggering it for me!?
- I hate to think that my veggie intake is causing me trouble, but that may very well be the case....? I eat a fair amount and quitting vegetables is just about the last thing I want to do....I'll try to increase MeFolate first to see what that will do....
Interesting to read about your detox-experience....what were your detox symtoms?
How are you doing today, "stable"? Do you have any energy?
Wishing you a great day! / Moshi

 

[ahmo]

Hi Moshi. In the days when I had no understanding of either B12/folate, and raised one without regard for the other, I got histamine responses to each of them independently. So, yes, it's poss you're reacting to B12.

Yes, it's a real bummer re veggies...

At the time of the folate/folinic incident, I'd been 5 months using coffee enemas, 4 days on/2 days off, w/ a number of things to promote bacterial/metal detox. The thing that forced me to investigate was increasing adrenal symptoms in my face, plus continuing need to increase folate. Within a day of quitting the cooked veg (I'd been up to 1-2 small size peeled zucchini/day, + 1/2 head Romaine lettuce w/ carrot in juice) my adrenals and liver were in real pain, plus low back inflammation I hadn't had in years, and I needed to continue the CEs w/o the 2 day break, + adding poultices to adrenals, liver. It was only then, when I researched adrenals, that I understood that the chronic low back inflammations of my past were related to adrenals.

My detox sx these days are pretty insignificant. What I notice is tinnitus. At the end of the period I mentioned above, there was clearly a major shift in my adrenals: that my tinnitus cleared, as well as the irritability, agitation, low threshold for frustration that I'd tried every sort of therapy to remedy. Now when any of these recurs, I take it as a sign to do coffee enemas. And in part because of no fiber intake, I'm tending to do CEs about every 3 days.

I'm stable in that my nervous system is, I think, better than it's ever been in my life. My mental energy is better than it's been for a decade. My physical energy and stamina lag behind. Fred noted to not confuse healing w/ rehabilitation, that rehab will take another year. So I still hold out hope that another 6 months might bring greater physical energy. Though I'm also now accepting of the possibility that this could be as good as it gets. The other difference in my protocol is low dose naltrexone, which seems to take some while to become fully effective...we'll see.

 

[garyfritz]

@Freddd suggests once/week AdB12

This confuses/surprises me. mB12 has a half-life of hours. Does adB12 have a half-life of days?

I haven't experimented with this enough, but I think I need adB12 more than once/week. mB12 & adB12 every day has been keeping my symptoms under control pretty well. When I started mB12 injections, I went off adB12/mfolate/LCF. I don't remember how long it took, but I think my symptoms recurred in less than a week. Yesterday (after being off injected mB12 for a while) I tried 2mg injected mB12 and no adB12, but still took my mfolate. At 3am I woke with jittery/wired symptoms. Usually a 5mg CL or a shot of Readisorb will settle me down right away -- I can feel my body relax almost immediately and I usually zonk out before the CL has even finished dissolving. But last night I took TWO CL's and was still wired after half an hour. Took 2mg adB12 and I finally relaxed enough to fall asleep. But I still feel wired and edgy this morning. I'll go back onto the adB12 today and experiment with removing it again later.

BTW I had a beer with friends last night -- after a "prophylactic" CL -- so that may have contributed, but I haven't noticed a reaction like this to alcohol before. I suspect it was the lack of adB12.

MB12: what kind of absorbtion may that yield?

Sorry, I'd have to refer to Fred's notes...

If I remember right, he mentioned an estimate somewhere in the 5-10% range for CL. Which says my 20mg of CL should be equivalent to 1-2mg of injected mB12 -- but so far I don't think I'm seeing as good a result with 1-2mg injected as with 20mg CL. So it may be even lower??

Looking at those ratios, yes, I'd suggest > folate.

I'm taking almost identical amounts -- 4mg adB12, 4mg mfolate, 20mg CL mB12, B12 taken in the afternoon/evening, sometimes with another CL in the night -- so maybe I should boost my mfolate more too. Those levels prevent most symptoms, but it's definitely not enough to keep my serum levels high all day. I can often feel jittery in the morning.

RE Potassium...I'm taking about 1 gm (1000mg) AM/PM. This is w/ a stable Mfolate intake. When I raised folate, I frequently needed extra K+ in the short term. From what I recall (having NO recall) this was pretty much in line w/ what others reported.

I had a bit of cramping when I first added the adB12 & folate back in, but usually I don't take any potassium at all. Which might be a mistake but I don't seem to have deficiency symptoms.

 

[garyfritz]

Yes, it's a real bummer re veggies...

For a while last year I had a juicer, and I had a big glass of juice every day -- mostly carrots, some kale, maybe broccoli, an apple or orange, that type of mix -- and I felt fine. No huge difference in energy but some minor skin issues seemed to clear up. So apparently I don't have a folate issue with veggies?

But I stopped juicing. Many of the veggies I used were high in iron, and it turns out I have congenitally high iron levels. Which is toxic for an adult male. So I stopped eating all the green veggies and started eating calcium/dairy/etc after eating high-heme meat -- the calcium binds to the iron and blocks uptake -- and I could control my iron levels that way.

But I have tinnitus too, have most of my life. I've always assumed it was physical damage (from hours on loud tractors when I was young, and too many loud rock concerts when I was a bit older), but I suppose it could be aggravated by nutrition. What do you think made the difference on your tinnitus?

 

[ahmo]

@garyfritz

Does adB12 have a half-life of days?

I don't know. I know prior to this recent change, Fred had experimented with, and recommended, various AdB12 schedules, eg. every other day....

but usually I don't take any potassium at all.

Maybe this is fine if no symptoms???I have no idea.

What do you think made the difference on your tinnitus?

Clearly, relieving the burden on my adrenals. My tinnitus was horrific during the yar prior to starting GAPS diet, leading up to B12/folate thpy. I can't recall, but probably it lessened soon after eliminating gluten. At times the screeching was so severe I could barely attend to conversations. It lessened over time. But the morning after a massive clearing in the event I mention above, I awoke to...silence...It was really a moment of *the silence was deafening*. Since then a mild to moderate hiss comes and goes as the load on adrenals (primary load on liver) comes and goes.

 

[garyfritz]

I'm glad you found relief. My tinnitus is much milder -- often I don't really notice it, even though it's still there -- but I can imagine what a joy that was to experience silence again. And now you have a useful "indicator" for your adrenal load!

 

[Sierra77]

Hi. I'm compound hetero MTHFR, didn't test for other mutations. I figured it out myself based on my symptoms similiar to undermethylated persons (i.e. grass pollen allergy). I started taking mb12 and methylfolate one year ago but didn't feel much from it. Finaly I found this protocol and decided to try it.

Currently I take ET mb12 1mg, Anabol Naturals adb12 10mg, Solgar Metafolin 800mcg, LCF 500mg, Omega3, Doctor Best Active B-Complex. I take it everyday in the morning, but still don't feel anything or not very much. Sublinguals dissolve during 2-3 hours. I can feel potassium needs and can titrate potassium which helps, but I can't identify any folate insufficiency symptoms. I tried titrate mfolate up to 8mg but didn't feel anything from it. Maybe I take too little of mb12 ?

One positive I noticed is that my allergy is completely gone but only after I started taking ET mb12. Earlier I took Swanson 5mg mb12 and allergy was still there.
I'm healthy and don't have CFS but I was allways lazy, don't want to finish things, procrastinate, lethargic, not much ambitious. I feel I should be able to do more but don't have the will. I can't fall asleep in the evening, I can only if I drink some decent amount of alcohol.

I've had trouble sleeping since I can remember.
Any ideas what should I try next ? Maybe try increase mb12 ? Up to what amount ? Thanks in advance.

 

[mgd1972]

@ahmo I tend to get a mild histamine reaction when I take my 5mg of CL mb12. What does this signify? Do i do nothing or does it indcate i should adjust something? Do I need to increase the Methylfolate? I currently take 4 mg 2 times a day. I probably should divide the doses more, but I find it tricky to work the potassium in as well.

I didn't realize Freddd recommended adb12 once a week and to skip the mb12 that day...thanks for the update. I find a get a spaced out feeling when I take adb12 which I figure is a healing reaction, my neurone turning on or something! It's tolerable.

 

[aquariusgirl]

@ahmo: what has low back pain got to do with adrenals?

 

[ahmo]

@aquariusgirl Turns out to be a lot! I had recurrent low back inflammatory flares for 10 years+. I learned to manage my back w/ Feldenkrais work. that is, to manage by learning strategies to shift the physical structure to < the pain and make movement easier. The issue started in an incident precipitated by stress, recurred whenever I faced a challenge.

This past May, having had no LB issues for most of a decade, since the ME collapse, I again experienced an episode. I was also in the midst of a detox crisis, very inflamed liver and adrenals. When I went searching for info re adrenals, there it was. And, in retrospect, so very obvious. Even if only due to the inflammation of adrenals impinging on the surrounding tissues, thus nerves. As referenced in the quote below, my LB was initially diagnosed by a chiropractor as a SI joint paint: Sacroiliac...I always accepted this diagnosis. but how very limited it was!

http://www.tuberose.com/Adrenal_Glands.html
Adrenal Gland–Related Muscles

Dr. Goodheart identified five specific skeletal muscles which are related to adrenal gland function. These are 1) sartorius, 2) gracilis, 3) posterior tibialis, 4) gastrocnemius, and 5) soleus. There will be weakness in one or more of these muscles when the adrenal glands are malfunctioning. Because of the attachments of the sartorius and gracilis on the pelvis, (sartorius—anterior superior iliac spine; gracilis—pubic ramus), their weakness in persons with adrenal stress problems may allow the sacroiliac joint to subluxate posteriorly. The sartorius and gracilis stabilize the innominate (one side of the pelvis), holding it in an anterior direction. Many persons with hypoadrenia seek chiropractic help for the care of sacroiliac pain and/or low back pain which is due to the lack of pelvic stabilization normally provided by these muscles.

The sartorius and gracilis have a common insertion (along with the semitendinosis) on the medial side of the knee and rotate the tibia medially on the femur. When weakness of these muscles occurs, there is a loss of stability on the medial side of the knee. The sartorius and gracilis (along with the semitendinosis) act as dynamic ligaments, protecting and supporting the medial knee joint during various ranges of motion. Their function is particularly important in situations where the knee ligaments alone offer inadequate support.

It is very important to check for hypoadrenia in any person with knee problems. One can see how one hypoadrenic person will present with knee problems and another with back problems, and some persons will have both.

Due to the relationship of the posterior tibialis, gastrocnemius, and soleus to the stability of the foot and ankle, many hypoadrenic persons will complain of symptoms of tired feet, weak ankles, or aching calves. The posterior tibialis holds up the medial longitudinal arch of the foot, especially during gait. In some persons exhibiting hypoadrenia-related weakness of the posterior tibialis, the medial arch will drop, causing a pronation problem and strain to the foot and ankle. The one common factor in persons with the above-mentioned musculoskeletal complaints will be the weakness of one or more of the five adrenal gland related muscles accompanied by improvement of their symptoms following treatment of the adrenal glands.

http://www.drlwilson.com/articles/adrenal_burnout.htm
http://www.drlwilson.com/articles/adrenal_burnout.htm
ADRENAL BURNOUT SYNDROME by LawrenceWilson, MD

 

[Sherpa]

I recovered from severe AFS (adrenal fatigue syndrome) - w/ collagen loss, muscle wasting, salt craving, neurochemical dysregulation, etc... and at the worse points I felt a stabbing pain in lower back.

 

[Rockt]

I've been supporting methylation with the B12's, etc. for about 4 years, but it's possible I haven't kept abreast of changes.

Ab12 is now recommended only once/week?

Also, I know there have been changes over time in the sublingual methylcobalamin recommended. Is there a particular brand that's being recommended currently?

 

[Sherpa]

sublingual methylcobalamin recommended. Is there a particular brand that's being recommended currently?

I'm having good, powerful effects from Enzymatic Therapy B12 infusion. Freddd and many others also recommend it.

I tried Jarrow Methyl B12 1000mcg... Lemon flavor... Its sugar free but has cirtic acid (bad for teeth). I found it equally effective to Enzymatic. Very slow dissolving.

Some have recommended Solgar. Very small, no sugar or acid. I tried it and found it to dissolve very fast, got somewhat weaker effects than Jarrow or Enzymatic

 

[Rockt]

Thanks Sherpa. I use the Enzymatic Therapy B12 Infusion now. Just wondered if there was anything better. It's kind of low dose at 1000mcg, but I guess its effectiveness is what counts.

Hey, can you share a bit about how you recovered from your adrenal issues?

 

[sueami]

As I recall Freddd's discussion of ADB12 dosing, he decided to experiment with a once-a-week mega-blast of ADB12 to see if a very large dose would create even greater neurological healing for himself and he was pleased with the results. He also mentioned that others, including a family member of his, seemed to do better on more regular and smaller scaled dosing of ADB12.

Like much about supporting the body's healing, playing around with ADB12 dosing is going to be something each individual trials for themselves and probably shouldn't be done at all until symptoms and reactions to the current supplement regime are stable.

 

[Sherpa]

Hey, can you share a bit about how you recovered from your adrenal issues?

I followed the advice of Dr. Michael Lam outlined in his excellent book "Adrenal Fatigue Syndrome." In a nutshell, I took large doses of Vitamin C, B5, and liposomal glutathione. After my system detoxed and stabilized, I added adaptogens (licorice, ashwaghanda) with regular breaks to avoid habituation... and cortisol modulating supplements like Seriphos , Relora & holy basil. Plus strict diet, yoga, muscle & collagen rebuilding supplements.

I don't want to veer too far off the Active B12 thread's topic...but if you would like to discuss adrenal syndrome issues further, contact me privately.

 

[ahmo]

@Rockt Fred's most recent advice is to take AdB12 once/week, and to not take MB12 on that day, to enhance absorption of both of them. He mentioned 50mg dose, which is what I've been doing.

He trialled Country Life 5mg, but found it inferior to ET. but it's what I've been using for about 6 months and it seems to be working well. Would I receive gains if I returned to ET1mg? Don't know. I'm currently taking 20mg B12/day, ET is 30 tabs/bottle, so I'm not going there. Fred uses injectable in addition to his sublingual.

My adrenal healing proceeded maybe similar to Sherpa's, in that detox was the key. I'd been using adrenal glandulars for 2 years as part of my life support system, when licorice was no longer helpful. During the past 2.5 years I've been on GAPS diet (paleo for sick people), methylation, and then increasingly intensive detox protocol, built around coffee enemas. At a specific point this past May, it was quite evident that I'd had a major clearing of adrenals. From then on, no adrenal glandulars, as well as some other supps. And, most remarkably, a shift from my life-long plague of irritability, agitation, low threshold for frustration. Now when those arise I know it's time for a coffee enema. Also an end to tinnitus. When tinnitus returns, CE time.

 

[Rockt]

Thanks Sherpa, Sueami and ahmo. Great info.

I'll contact you privately.

 

[LynnJ]

I’m a little confused about folate deficiency when it’s caused by, say, nutrition or medication (versus a paradoxical deficiency).

Can a folate deficiency due to something OTHER than B12 cause symptoms like muscle pain, spasms/twitching, headaches, and nerve issues? Or do those types of symptoms somehow only occur with paradoxical folate deficiency?

Most websites with info on folate deficiency don't list things like muscle aches, etc., hence my uncertainty. Some websites say low folate can cause neuropathy and myalgia/inflammation, but others mostly list fatigue, weakness, sore tongue...

I was on Spironolactone for a little over two years (just went off it about 2 weeks ago), and apparently it can drastically lower one's folate levels. I'm starting to wonder if most of my problems (pain, pain, and more PAIN) are stemming from this. But I'm reading mixed things on whether folate deficiency really can cause muscle/nerve pain or not.

 

[aturtles]

I could not find the right place to say this, so I'm going to say it here. Because WOW, I never thought I'd be saying this...!

Yesterday, under my Nat Doctor's direction, I gave myself my first Methyl-B12 injection.

I'm super proud of myself. I never thought I'd be able to do self-administered injections. I was really apprehensive (okay, yeah, TERRIFIED), but I did it. And OH my GOSH is the result far and away better than all the brands and doses of sublingual MeClbs I've tried.

The ND was great -- she coached me beautifully. But I actually did the injection. (Me! ).

I wanted to post about it in case anyone else is wondering about injections, but thinking that doing it themselves would be too hard and terrifying. Because that's what I thought. And I've taken the first step.