Overdone it or detox reaction?

[Enigmatic]

Hi,

I'm relatively new to @Freddd's protocol. I'm treating Pyroluria plus I am treating CFS/FMS.

I experienced a good reaction to Methyl B12 and had initially started treatment with Thorne Stress B Complex along with some Thorne 5-MTHF. All supplements had been started before finding the protocol recommended here and I've now received my latest order from iHerb so I can follow the protocol properly.

The reason for posting is I've been unwell for a few days now and I'm not sure exactly what it is.

A few days back I took a couple of the 5-MTHF capsules as I was really feeling a benefit from them overall. I had an awful nights sleep with insomnia returning after several days of really good sleep. I also had an upset stomach and was cranky with the kids.

I looked this up and saw that they were probably due to taking too much 5-MTHF so I backed off all my B's for two days so as not to add to the symptoms. I saw that I should take Niacin but I have none of this as a separate supplement.

Now I am back to sleeping well at night but I am ridiculously tired all day. I don't wake easily in the morning and will go back to sleep. I still have an upset stomach but not as bad as before and I feel washed out, cold and achy.

To some extent it feels like a cold without the coughing and sneezing.

Is this all a consequence of taking too much 5-MTHF (which I will be way more careful with now) or have I kicked off a detox reaction?

What should I do about taking my supplements, specifically Methylfolate?

Thanks in advance.
Chris

 

[Critterina]

Chris,
It's hard to say. Some people find that the B vitamins put them to sleep, some that they wake them up. You have to consider the possibility that you did get a mild virus, too - not all of them cause coughing and sneezing. What I have read here is that many people find MTHF stimulating, so they take it in the morning, and MB12 makes them sleepy, so they take it later in the day. And, OF COURSE, some have the opposite reaction.
My personal opinion - and not more than that - attributing symptoms to a detox reaction is my least favorite way of coping with adverse effects and you risk doing damage if you're misinterpreting what is going on. From what @Freddd says (and he doesn't publish his research, so I generally consider that an opinion, too), MTHF stays in the body a long time. Maybe ask him how long it takes to get half of it out of your system. Then I would wait a multiple of that time (5x to 10x) before starting again.
The idea of using niacin - I should have no opinion on this, but - what I've read people report here is that they are usually feeling spun up or anxious when they have too much MTHF and treat it with niacin. So my opinion is that it's probably good you didn't try that.
Best wishes. Sorry I am not really of any help. Please consider multiple opinions and make your own decisions, preferably with competent medical help.
Crit

 

[sregan]

You might be experiencing low B12 from taking all that MethlyFolate. I would take some MB12 by itself to restore your b12 levels. I find when I cannot get up in the morning MB12 helps that a lot.

 

[Enigmatic]

@Critterina Thanks for the response. I've eased right off the MTHF and now only get a small amount in my B complex capsule.

I still feel "off" but it isn't as bad as it was but still not quite right.

It's odd that when I was just treating my Pyroluria and asked in another forum about how I would know it was Copper dumping I got told there I'd "just know" or that other people said they felt they were dieing.

I'm not looking to use either as an excuse; just trying to understand why I've gone from feeling OK to not OK again. I'm just trying to dial stuff in and know what is going on in my body as it is now totally different to a lot of pre-treatment symptoms.

I don't have any Niacin so can't try that and I don't really want to add anything new into the mix as that may only confuse things.

@sregan I'll take some more B12. I'd reverted to just the one lozenge again.

 

[matters]

hi Enigmatic,
I'm dealing with the same issues, feeling ok, not so ok, spurts of ok again.. it's frustrating because we really don't know what's truly going on.

have you tried increasing potassium? I'm trying that not sure if it's a factor yet. But worth a shot.

Also, have you done a simple zinc taste test with liquid zinc to see how low you are?. I'm not sure if Pyroluria means you have adequate zinc/b6 stores but your body isn't using it because of genetic mutation, like the folic acid/folate issue or if it's truly a deficiency. Just throwing it at you. I'm about ready to do the full nutreval panel to see where things are breaking and look for specific deficiencies.

 

[Enigmatic]

Thanks for the response @matters.

I've not done a Zinc test but it is on my to do list. I have been treating my Pyroluria with Thorne double strength Zinc Picolinate plus I take Thorne Pic-Mins so get extra Zinc from that too. I take B6 as both Coenzyme Pyridoxal-5-Phosphate and Pyridoxine Hydrochloride.

I've been taking Potassium but perhaps not enough. I had some more yesterday along with some B12 and felt a bit better. Then I had a really bad nights sleep where generally it has been good and have woken today with a sore throat and coughing up stuff on my chest. I've not done that in months.

Energy wise I feel better from taking the extra B12 but still do not feel right.

 

[matters]

Yea, i'm feeling a little off too since increasing folate/b12 I've started taking more potassium and feel a little better too. I'm thinking of upping the dosage of potassium just to see. Daily requirement for potassium is 3500 mg daily ! That's a lot of 99mg pills. So if you take 2 or 3 of those pills it hardly makes a dent. I'm not going to take 35 but maybe 10 or so and see..

I guess there is some controversy on "large" dosages of potassium and stomach upset (drink lots of water) so the powers that be settled on a 99mg dose for supplement companies that manufacture potassium. Something like that.

Also, I've been on zinc for over a year for a true deficiency. I'm wondering where my copper levels are at. As too much zinc chelates copper. So keep this in mind too. This is why I'm hoping nutrval will shed some light, because overdoing copper is not a good idea.

 

[Enigmatic]

@matters I use this powder as it is easier to take dissolved in a drink; the last thing I need is more pills
http://www.iherb.com/Now-Foods-Pota...c=0&lc=en-US&w=potassium&rc=6625&sr=null&ic=1

I'll give it a few more days and see how it goes. I'm hoping it will settle.

I definitely still have high Copper and need the Zinc to displace that. I still have quite visible Kayser–Fleischer rings in my eyes. Waiting on test results to see if the Copper has reduced any since the last test.

 

[matters]

Yea, too many pills for sure, I could open a health food store,

i'll check out that powder.

Are you increasing your dosage of vit c to bind that copper? Mercola has a liposomal vit c at a good price, can take more without the bowel symptoms

http://products.mercola.com/vitamin-c/

Also, high vit c Iv's might be a way to go if you want to act fast on it. Good thing about Vit C I don't think much can go wrong with high levels.

 

[Enigmatic]

@matters I was taking that Mercola Vitamin C product but have just finished it. I've switched to another product at the moment and that is a lower dose.

Whilst Vitamin C is good, too much of it has been shown to reduce the amount of Ceruloplasmin in the body. As I understand it, Copper needs to be bound to this to the Ceruloplasmin.

 

[Freddd]

Hi Enigmatic,

The Active B12 protocol is very tricky. However, it does not mix well with all sorts of other hypotheses. So too much b1, b2 and/or b3 can all cause problems. NAC, whey, glutathione, MAXGL and other precursor products can cause all sorts of problems. Part of the Active b12 protocol is avoiding all the things that might cause problem right off the bat in order to get healing started and clues coming your way, until you have a chance to test everything to see if it enhances or stops healing, adding one at a time after you get a good start. You accumulate them because it often takes combinations of 4 or 5 things to be effective. You need to start as simple as possible because with all these things going at once it becomes something nobody can untangle. Just the Deadlock Quartet supplements have hundreds to thousands of biochemical effects in every part of the body. One needs to start healing and then refine the process. Too much all at once and one doesn't know if they are coming or going. The active B12 protocol is the only one which predicts several sets of responses and how to deal with them for about 5 levels conditionally building on each other pragmatically determined. When it's mixed with lots of other ideas interpretation becomes impossible. How many variables and variable relationships can you deal with at the same time?

 

[Enigmatic]

Thank you for replying @Freddd.

I continue to come to the conclusion I've gone at it too hard, too soon. I've since noticed improvements as I've removed what I sussed out being "too much" and stripped back what I've been taking.

As I'd already mentioned I first noticed issues and tracked this back to taking too much 5-MTHF. I've stopped my B complex capsule as that was adding more MTHF plus the B's.

I've also gone at it too hard with the L-Carnitine Fumarate and have ordered the liquid version so I can start smaller. I also need to suss out the best way to split and take parts of the powder capsule.

NAC and Whey had been recommended to me but I have not been taking. I have taken Glutathione with Milk Thistle as I have issues with my Liver. I do stop and start with this but have noticed I am worse without it. Going forward, I will drop this as it is a variable you suggest I don't need.

Starting tomorrow I'm going to focus on the quartet. I will also keep taking my B6/P5P and Zinc as I need to treat my Pyroluria.

I do have growing concerns about my liver function despite being told nothing is wrong by the people I see. My ALT levels continue to climb and are now at their highest level and outside the upper range. How will supplementing the quartet apply to helping the liver?

 

[Freddd]

Thank you for replying @Freddd.

I continue to come to the conclusion I've gone at it too hard, too soon. I've since noticed improvements as I've removed what I sussed out being "too much" and stripped back what I've been taking.

As I'd already mentioned I first noticed issues and tracked this back to taking too much 5-MTHF. I've stopped my B complex capsule as that was adding more MTHF plus the B's.

I've also gone at it too hard with the L-Carnitine Fumarate and have ordered the liquid version so I can start smaller. I also need to suss out the best way to split and take parts of the powder capsule.

NAC and Whey had been recommended to me but I have not been taking. I have taken Glutathione with Milk Thistle as I have issues with my Liver. I do stop and start with this but have noticed I am worse without it. Going forward, I will drop this as it is a variable you suggest I don't need.

Starting tomorrow I'm going to focus on the quartet. I will also keep taking my B6/P5P and Zinc as I need to treat my Pyroluria.

I do have growing concerns about my liver function despite being told nothing is wrong by the people I see. My ALT levels continue to climb and are now at their highest level and outside the upper range. How will supplementing the quartet apply to helping the liver?

Hi Enigmatic,

The liver contains approximately 50% of the total B12 in the body, not in some mythological storage system, but in working tissue producing the ATP and single carbon transactions (methylation) needed to power everything the liver does. SAM-e is documented in research for being liver beneficial. LCF is needed for transporting the fats to the mitochondria to produce the ATP. Zinc is an important cofactor for AdoCbl in tackling inflammation. I found doses to 65mg daily noticeably helpful. Vit D at about 5000 IU appears to be very helpful as well.