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Xeno/estrogens link to CFS/Fibromyalgia - Success!!

knackers323

Senior Member
Messages
1,625
On a good day I am a 9/10 on a bad day 6/10. Not doing these treatments anymore.

It is my conclusion based off seeing what happened with myself and my gf, the estrogen issue really is a microbial issue. http://www.gestaltreality.com/2013/09/21/metabolic-cholestatic-pruritus/

It has to do with enterohepatic re-circulation and gut dysbiosis. Fix the gut with the right pre & pro biotics and the hormonal issues and detox issues fix themselves.

Is it the use of pre and probiotics that has got you to the level your at now?

What are/were your symptoms?

Thanks
 

maryb

iherb code TAK122
Messages
3,602
Location
UK
@Gestalt
can I ask you did you suffer from MCS, food/supplement intolerances, allergies before you started on this regime?
 
Messages
47
Location
Los Angeles
WOW. Just read this entire thread. I had come along the same path as you (albeit with a lot less detail and understanding) but I was on Accutane too around 15 years ago and wondering if it had payed a part.

On a separate journey I was researching CYP3A4. I haven't been able to make head or tail of anything I got back on my 23andme, but will do so now given the site info provided.

But my point is this: I came to the same conclusion as you, only it was PROGESTERONE, not estrogen I decided was the culprit. For various reasons - empirical rather than chemical.
1) I have always gone loony around day 15 of my cycle - right when progesterone kicks in and peaks.
2) I was twice put on the progesterone only pill and it nearly killed me
3) I did many, many IVF cycles, and not only did I inject massive amounts of progesterone over a period of many years (which some doctors believe can get stuck in fat cells for up to six years), but we had several failed cycles with perfect embryos, where subsequent tests appeared to show that my progesterone level on day 21 was low - despite doubling up on suppositories and IM injections.
4) I've just started SUPER low dose HRT. The estrogen patch went on a few days before I started the progesterone and I felt really good. Then I started supplementing progesterone and it was like going back to my worst ever days of fibro! I was writhing around on the bed begging my husband to rub my legs, desperate for relief. So - two days ago I stopped the progesterone (and kept the estrogen patch on) Lo and behold I feel much, much better today!
5) I tried DIM about a year ago and had a violent reaction to it - it seemed to make my symptoms a lot worse. I thought herx perhaps, but I stopped anyway but now I'm wondering if maybe estrogen opposes progesterone and therefore by taking DIM I was changing my estrogen/progesterone ratio - using the balance towards progesterone. Perhaps?

Anyway - everything I've read says that CYP3A4 does the same thing to progesterone as it does to estrogen. Is there a reason why a) you decided to concentrate on estrogen (xenestrogens) specifically or b) that it shouldn't be progesterone that is the problem for me?

PS - This is a genuine question. I'm a long way behind you on the chemistry, but upping my estrogen seems to be working. I'd hate to be moving in the wrong direction! Any input would be gratefully received!
 

jjxx

Senior Member
Messages
137
5) I tried DIM about a year ago and had a violent reaction to it - it seemed to make my symptoms a lot worse. I thought herx perhaps, but I stopped anyway but now I'm wondering if maybe estrogen opposes progesterone and therefore by taking DIM I was changing my estrogen/progesterone ratio - using the balance towards progesterone. Perhaps?

Sorry to hear your terrible experience with DIM, it certainly alarms me. I am considering DIM for myself until I read another lady online cautioning people with low estrogen. Your experience verified it without doubt for me. If you research online, you will find hormone remedies working well for majority of women, definitely will cause harm to a very few like myself, completely progesterone intolerant. Hormone issues for majority of women are complex to even skilled doctors; much much worse for a handful minority.
 

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,092
I am considering DIM for myself until I read another lady online cautioning people with low estrogen.
I tried 10mg DIM a couple of months ago and I could only think about suicide on it (took it only 2x). Now I finally started Xdermal estrogen and feel better. I was supposed to pair it with Xdermal progesterone as well, but it makes me worse. This is the 3rd time I try Xdermal progesterone and feel awful. It feels like it creates or mobilizes oxalate/uric acid tissue deposits.
 

jjxx

Senior Member
Messages
137
I tried 10mg DIM a couple of months ago and I could only think about suicide on it (took it only 2x). Now I finally started Xdermal estrogen and feel better. I was supposed to pair it with Xdermal progesterone as well, but it makes me worse. This is the 3rd time I try Xdermal progesterone and feel awful. It feels like it creates or mobilizes oxalate/uric acid tissue deposits.
Wow, thanks for letting me know, it all makes sense now.

I am convinced that @Cog71, you and I belong to the 3-5% women, who are INTOLERANT of PROGESTERONE. In another words, our own hormone makes us SICK.

I only "touched" progesterone twice in my life. Once, I was put on birth control pills for the the first time with the lowest progesterone in, it almost drove me insane. I had to came off it within days on my own without knowing what the culprit was , until years later when I was connecting dots on my own again, apparently neither did my doctor who prescribed it. The second time is with vitex, which has pro-progesterone property that if you read online, majority of women sing praise while very few ladies complained its awful suicidal effect. I went ahead and in two days, I experienced a strong sense of depression, with which I was not familiar, even though I always thought I had been fatigued and depressed ever since I started menstruation at 12. After that experience, I realized what I have had is better described as malaise not depression.
 

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,092
Actually I tolerated the pill fairly well (until I had to quit it due to thrombosis), and also the 1st round of progesterone. What really pushed my estrogen levels into oblivion has been the Paleo Diet - no PABA and not enough Manganese.
 

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,092
Coincidentally I just read the most intriguing comment to a Mercola's article:
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/a...ion-you-need-to-know-about-kidney-stones.aspx
Most people can process oxalic acid from plants. Yet some people have an impaired ability to handle oxalic acid notably, because they are lacking Oxalobacter Formigenes, a bacterium that is able to degrade oxalates. This bacterium normally present in our intestinal tracts is destroyed from macrolides, fluoroquinolones, tetra cyclines and ALL hormone use including the pill, and the infamous "bio-identical progesterone".

A deficiency in vitamin B6 is also known to impair the body's ability to process oxalic acid.

Other foods containing high levels of oxalic acid are; rhubarb, spinach, strawberries, chodolate, wheat bran, peanuts, nuts and tea. In general, plants that are grown in a field with a high level of calcium have high levels of oxalic acid.
 

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,092
Wow, thanks for letting me know, it all makes sense now.
Some recognized side-effects from Progesterone replacement therapy:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bioidentical_hormone_replacement_therapy#Progesterone_2
Progesterone
See also: Progesterone § Adverse effects
Progesterone can cause the emergence (or significant worsening) of abdominal pain, constipation, yeast infections, breast cancer, cystitis, acne, conjunctivitis, thrombotic disorders resulting in pulmonary embolus, strokes or heart attacks and—due to increased fluid retention—epilepsy, migraine, asthma and cardiac or renal dysfunction. Psychiatric reactions can include emotional instability, depression, aggression, decreased libido and drowsiness. Adverse effects can also occur in the urinary, central or peripheral nervous system or bones and muscles.[34] A review of clinical trials studying bioidentical progesterone use found that it was ineffective in managing vasomotor symptoms of menopause, but had mild and self-limiting side effects.[35]
 

jjxx

Senior Member
Messages
137
Some recognized side-effects from Progesterone replacement therapy:
Thanks for sharing!

In my case, progesterone is harmful while estrogen is beneficial. I know I may benefit even more from estrogen supplement in higher dosage (currently I am using Life Flo Estriol-care cream), but there is always concern of estrogen induced ovary and breast cancer risk.
 

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,092
@Asklipia @alicec @jjxx
One could think that using progesterone replacement could have a B6-sparing effect since B6 is involved in estrogen breakdown and progesterone synthesis, but apparently in some people it completely blocks B6 metabolism.
 

jjxx

Senior Member
Messages
137
@Asklipia @alicec @jjxx
One could think that using progesterone replacement could have a B6-sparing effect since B6 is involved in estrogen breakdown and progesterone synthesis, but apparently in some people it completely blocks B6 metabolism.
That's something I would like to look into. Could you link your reference(s)? Thanks a lot!
 

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,092
That's something I would like to look into. Could you link your reference(s)? Thanks a lot!
My starting point is always the link in my sig "Balancing Nutrients", they generally don't cite references, but I have repeatedly found confirmation of the info on nutrition books and indexed studies at PubMed.
 

jjxx

Senior Member
Messages
137
My starting point is always the link in my sig "Balancing Nutrients", they generally don't cite references, but I have repeatedly found confirmation of the info on nutrition books and indexed studies at PubMed.
Yes, I know that website loaded with very detailed info related to almost every single vitamins and minerals and I often find it valuable. But at times, I found myself skeptical about some of their information. One example as fellows,

copy and paste from their website:

.....While B-Vitamins may be helpful for high estrogenic-types of PMS
(volatile, angry moods), larger amounts may worsen low estrogenic,
depressive-types of PMS, with a greater potential of causing suicidal
episodes in prone women, in which case single B-Vitamins need to
be specifically matched to be effective.....

That's complete untrue in my case! I know if I did follow their conclusion, I could have ruined my liver and myself completely. Luckily, I do listen to my own body, the only supplement has helped me in the past is multiple pills of B-100 complex and I must double the dosage when I am entering the second half of my cycle, where my progesterone starts to build up while estrogen goes down. I don't want to bore you with my case. Simply put, with cyclic processing/disposal of sex hormones involved in menstruation, our liver demands sufficient amount of B vitamins month after month.
 

jjxx

Senior Member
Messages
137
My starting point is always the link in my sig "Balancing Nutrients", they generally don't cite references, but I have repeatedly found confirmation of the info on nutrition books and indexed studies at PubMed.
I also would like to add that I am a big "fan" of liver and gut health as you. Nutrition is foundation; Good nutrition comes from healthy digestive system. Not "putting cart in front of horse" is crucial in the battle of CFS imho.
 

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,092
Good nutrition comes from healthy digestive system.
I have been repeatedly harmed by nutritious food. Take something as innocent as raw carrots, or a squeezed lemon, or avocado, blueberries...
Raw carrots and lemon have potent anti-estrogenic properties, as does quecetin (aromatase inhibitor). Plus the plant hormones (salicylates) can be pretty poisonous to susceptible individuals. Someone wrote a book about salicylates and named it "The helthier I eat, the sicker I get" - I haven't read it, but this describes me :aghhh:
.....While B-Vitamins may be helpful for high estrogenic-types of PMS
(volatile, angry moods), larger amounts may worsen low estrogenic,
depressive-types of PMS, with a greater potential of causing suicidal
episodes in prone women, in which case single B-Vitamins need to
be specifically matched to be effective.....
Someone close to me got the following effect from B6: she is just overcoming a mild case of PCOS (so was androgen dominant, in any case she isn't estrogen dominant). One or two days before menstruation she took B6 and had a severe depression, so I think it matches the description.
 

Gondwanaland

Senior Member
Messages
5,092
Perhaps progesterone intolerance is a symptom of low niacin?

http://www.functionalps.com/blog/20...sm-effects-of-progesterone-estrogen-and-pufa/
Pellagra occurs about twice as often in women as in men, and this is because estrogen activates an enzyme that alters metabolism of tryptophan, blocking the formation of niacin. The alternative products include the excitotoxin, quinolinic acid, and some carcinogens.

Progesterone inhibits the activity of that enzyme. Progesterone also lowers brain serotonin (Izquierdo, et al., 1978), decreases the excitatory carcinogens (Moursi, et al., 1970) and increases the formation of niacin (Shibata, et al., 2003) The polyunsaturated fats, DHA, EPA, and linoleic acid activate the conversion of tryptophan to quinolinic acid (Egashira, et al., 2003, 2007), and inhibit the formation of niacin (Egashira, et al., 1995). -Ray Peat, PhD
Personally I do not benefit from dietary/supplement advice by Ray Peat, but think that nevertheless some things are worthwhile giving a look.