B-12 - The Hidden Story

[LynnJ]

B12 sometimes gives me headaches, but I think it's because it causes my heart to race, which leads to shortness of breath, which leads to me gasping a little, and then the headache starts because I'm trying to suck in too much oxygen.

(I have to say, I used ONLY Jarrow B12 about a year ago before stumbling on this forum, and although it took about a month until I began having the shortness of breath and racing heart that I'm guessing is due to either potassium or magnesium, it made all of my muscle pain and neuropathy symptoms disappear. They came back after I stopped it. So... I know it's not the B12 of choice anymore, but for some reason, it worked for me AFTER it was supposed to be no good due to a formula change).

I try to take enough potassium to stop these symptoms, but I'm currently finding it impossible unless I want to end up with a very upset stomach. I've stopped swallowing my pills - I'm breaking them apart and dumping the potassium powder into my drink instead. We'll see if that makes any difference.

Does anyone know if B12 can cause a stuffy nose? Because I feel like it is, for me, but it's not a side effect I've really heard of. Kinda odd...

Also curious if anyone else seems to have trouble tolerating methylfolate, and if so, what you ended up doing. I bought some Solgar folate, and when I tried both small and large doses (some people say start the big dose right away, others say increase slowly) I had a really big increase in muscle pain. I stopped cold-turkey, but I'm starting to wonder if I should give it another go since everyone says it's so crucial. I remember reading somewhere, though, that if you try taking folate before you get pre-existing inflammation under control, it can make it worse.

 

[saint]

Thanks for your response. I have to re-read through some of the posts. I don't recall anyone stating that you had to add vitamin K to the protocol that you linked me to.

However, if you think it will help, I'll take it.

The Jarrow was one I had used before I found out on here that Jarrow mb12 is no longer recommended. I thought maybe they were getting a headache from detox.

I know exactly what you are stating: "only the rarest of practitioners can help us with". It's like trying to find a needle in a haystack.

I started writing my symptoms down today.

I did have something weird though: I started getting faint upon standing today. I remembered reading about "orthostatic" something in my online travels. One of my children who is a nurse was over & knew what it was. I never had it before. So something is shifting in my system.

 

[PeterPositive]

Does anyone know if B12 can cause a stuffy nose? Because I feel like it is, for me, but it's not a side effect I've really heard of. Kinda odd...

B12 releases histamine which in turn can cause allergy-like symptoms, such as runny / stuffy nose.

 

[saint]

B12 sometimes gives me headaches, but I think it's because it causes my heart to race, which leads to shortness of breath, which leads to me gasping a little, and then the headache starts because I'm trying to suck in too much oxygen.

(I have to say, I used ONLY Jarrow B12 about a year ago before stumbling on this forum, and although it took about a month until I began having the shortness of breath and racing heart that I'm guessing is due to either potassium or magnesium, it made all of my muscle pain and neuropathy symptoms disappear. They came back after I stopped it. So... I know it's not the B12 of choice anymore, but for some reason, it worked for me AFTER it was supposed to be no good due to a formula change).

I try to take enough potassium to stop these symptoms, but I'm currently finding it impossible unless I want to end up with a very upset stomach. I've stopped swallowing my pills - I'm breaking them apart and dumping the potassium powder into my drink instead. We'll see if that makes any difference.

Does anyone know if B12 can cause a stuffy nose? Because I feel like it is, for me, but it's not a side effect I've really heard of. Kinda odd...

Also curious if anyone else seems to have trouble tolerating methylfolate, and if so, what you ended up doing. I bought some Solgar folate, and when I tried both small and large doses (some people say start the big dose right away, others say increase slowly) I had a really big increase in muscle pain. I stopped cold-turkey, but I'm starting to wonder if I should give it another go since everyone says it's so crucial. I remember reading somewhere, though, that if you try taking folate before you get pre-existing inflammation under control, it can make it worse.

Lynn - ALL of your muscle pain & neuropathy disappeared on just the mB12 alone? How long did it take? Did you have neck spasms - as that is where most of my fibromyalgia pain is concentrated. How much potassium did you take?

For me, I've had allergy symptoms for awhile so don't know if my current congestion is due to B12 protocol or not. I know it was on the news that this is supposed to be a really bad year for allergies. Also, for some reason, allergies are on the increase. Maybe SAD has something to do with it. I read a high carb diet predisposes one to allergies, as well as adrenal issues.

I recall a quote from Dr. Tintera: "there are not different allergies, just different adrenal glands". Don't know if that could have something to do with it.

 

[LynnJ]

B12 releases histamine which in turn can cause allergy-like symptoms, such as runny / stuffy nose.

Interesting... And frustrating.

Are there any supplements that can combat this? I saw someone mentioned licorice root and SAMe (although I heard the latter can cause stomach upset, which is the last thing I need on top of the potassium).

 

[saint]

B12 releases histamine which in turn can cause allergy-like symptoms, such as runny / stuffy nose.

Peter - if B12 releases histamine - do you know if there is a natural way to control it - other than allergy pills? I am on them day & night (not good for stomach lining).
thx

 

[saint]

Interesting... And frustrating.

Are there any supplements that can combat this? I saw someone mentioned licorice root and SAMe (although I heard the latter can cause stomach upset, which is the last thing I need on top of the potassium).

Licorice is supposed to be good for the stomach. There was one Italian Dr. who supposedly cured himself of cfs by taking licorice. I know for it to have a positive effect on the adrenals it has to have glycyhhrizin in it. I bought a liquid from Pureformulas that has I think 12% standardized glycyhhrizin.

 

[LynnJ]

Lynn - ALL of your muscle pain & neuropathy disappeared on just the mB12 alone? How long did it take? Did you have neck spasms - as that is where most of my fibromyalgia pain is concentrated. How much potassium did you take?

For me, I've had allergy symptoms for awhile so don't know if my current congestion is due to B12 protocol or not. I know it was on the news that this is supposed to be a really bad year for allergies. Also, for some reason, allergies are on the increase. Maybe SAD has something to do with it. I read a high carb diet predisposes one to allergies, as well as adrenal issues.

I recall a quote from Dr. Tintera: "there are not different allergies, just different adrenal glands". Don't know if that could have something to do with it.

Correct. All of the neuropathy in my feet and the severe pain along my shoulders and clavicles/pec muscles (if you want me to describe the pain more, just let me know) went away. I'd say it took 2-3 months, although I confess it's hard to recall. I know I started taking B12 (5000mcg per day) on my birthday in April, and by the time July swung around and I was hitting some of the summer festivals I felt pretty darn good, so... At first the Jarrow didn't cause any side effects at all. I also chewed it rather than let it dissolve in my mouth.

No neck spasms, btw.

When I was taking the Jarrow B12, I didn't take any extra potassium besides what I got through my diet. I was unaware that my severe shortness of breath and racing heart were due to the B12 at first, and even when I figured it out I didn't find the correct information that would have led me to suspect potassium (or magnesium). I got so desperate I stopped the B12 entirely. The doctor actually tried to give me Zoloft because they thought I had anxiety. Sigh... Within maybe 2 months all my symptoms came back with a bang, though. So here I am again!

I seem to be having a little more trouble getting things under control this time around. My shoulders feel pretty good right now, but not perfect, and the neuropathy in my feet seems more stubborn.

At times I almost wonder whether I was better off chewing and swallowing the B12 rather than letting it dissolve.

 

[PeterPositive]

Interesting... And frustrating.

Are there any supplements that can combat this? I saw someone mentioned licorice root and SAMe (although I heard the latter can cause stomach upset, which is the last thing I need on top of the potassium).

I had the same problem. High histamine with skin issues and when I started taking methyl-B12 it got worse for a while. I just went slowly and now it doesn't bother me any more.

It's also true I don't take huge dose of B12. I usually take 2mg Methy-B12 and 2mg Ado-B12. So ~4mg/day.

SAMe didn't work me and yes it's not super easy on the digestion. Taking 400mg in two separate doses did the trick for me in terms of avoiding stomach issues.

A moderately high dose of vitamin C can help with histamine reduction. I think a basic dose should be ~2000mg
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1578094

 

[PeterPositive]

April, and by the time July swung around and I was hitting some of the summer festivals I felt pretty darn good, so... At first the Jarrow didn't cause any side effects at all. I also chewed it rather than let it dissolve in my mouth.
...
...
At times I almost wonder whether I was better off chewing and swallowing the B12 rather than letting it dissolve.

Ouch, if you chew and swallow you're pretty much wasting it.
Sublingual tablets should be dissolved veeery slowly under the tongue or, as per Freddd suggestion, between cheek and gum. The slower they dissolve the more you will absorb.

 

[LynnJ]

Ouch, if you chew and swallow you're pretty much wasting it.
Sublingual tablets should be dissolved veeery slowly under the tongue or, as per Freddd suggestion, between cheek and gum. The slower they dissolve the more you will absorb.

Well, so they say, but after about a month I started getting the B12 side effects and my symptoms I was taking the B12 for in the first place started resolving, to the point where I felt "cured." Again, this was about a year ago.

Now I've been dissolving them in my mouth for at least 45 minutes (I try to make them dissolve as slowly as possible, aiming for 1-2 hours). But again, I'm healing much slower, so it's just kinda curious.

 

[ahmo]

@saint, sorry to be confusing K+ is potassium.

I've had fabulous results using some natural things for histamines. Rutin, royal jelly, and mangosteen. My body seems to prefer rutin for the immediate effects of histamines: it works within minutes. I take each of them daily, as I'm constantly dealing w/ histamines, part of my genetic type.

@LynnJ. @madietodd madietodd, I thought of you in my early-morning thoughts. I have a better response today re carnitine. It's possible that you're one of the people for whom a different type would work better. I tried Acetyl-L-Carnitine (ALCAR) first, then carnitine bitartrate. Neither worked for me, but Fumarate did. It's awful to have a cupboard full of things that didn't work, but it's sometimes necessaary. I've just given away a couple big bags of things I tried.

But for both of you, there is a work-around for not tolerating supps. I take most of my aminos and minerals in footbaths. I use 1 in AM, again in PM, have been doing this for about a year. I don't need any greater amount than when I take them orally, soak for 15-20 minutes, and keep the gut happy.

Re licorice: this was my life-support system for about a year. I assume it was the same Italian doctor who's recommendations I followed. But I think it's also possible to over-stress your adrenals. Eventually I couldn't tolerate it, and then went to adrenal glandulars, which I used for about 2 years, and found a wonderful addition. Happily, I've just been able to discontinue them.

 

[saint]

Correct. All of the neuropathy in my feet and the severe pain along my shoulders and clavicles/pec muscles (if you want me to describe the pain more, just let me know) went away. I'd say it took 2-3 months, although I confess it's hard to recall. I know I started taking B12 (5000mcg per day) on my birthday in April, and by the time July swung around and I was hitting some of the summer festivals I felt pretty darn good, so... At first the Jarrow didn't cause any side effects at all. I also chewed it rather than let it dissolve in my mouth.

No neck spasms, btw.

When I was taking the Jarrow B12, I didn't take any extra potassium besides what I got through my diet. I was unaware that my severe shortness of breath and racing heart were due to the B12 at first, and even when I figured it out I didn't find the correct information that would have led me to suspect potassium (or magnesium). I got so desperate I stopped the B12 entirely. The doctor actually tried to give me Zoloft because they thought I had anxiety. Sigh... Within maybe 2 months all my symptoms came back with a bang, though. So here I am again!

I seem to be having a little more trouble getting things under control this time around. My shoulders feel pretty good right now, but not perfect, and the neuropathy in my feet seems more stubborn.

At times I almost wonder whether I was better off chewing and swallowing the B12 rather than letting it dissolve.

Thanks for response. That's encouraging that you were able to eradicate the pain. I have had this so long I forget what normal feels like.

Good luck with getting your 2nd round of symptoms under control. Didn't know if you went to link "How I Recovered" or not, but I printed it out & am studying it. There was a lot of info that I didn't realize about B12 - especially taking both forms. The dibencozide is the one that's supposed to help with muscle pain I think.

 

[saint]

I had the same problem. High histamine with skin issues and when I started taking methyl-B12 it got worse for a while. I just went slowly and now it doesn't bother me any more.

It's also true I don't take huge dose of B12. I usually take 2mg Methy-B12 and 2mg Ado-B12. So ~4mg/day.

SAMe didn't work me and yes it's not super easy on the digestion. Taking 400mg in two separate doses did the trick for me in terms of avoiding stomach issues.

A moderately high dose of vitamin C can help with histamine reduction. I think a basic dose should be ~2000mg
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1578094

Good link. Rather take vitamin c than all the allergy pills I'm on.

 

[saint]

@saint, sorry to be confusing K+ is potassium.

I've had fabulous results using some natural things for histamines. Rutin, royal jelly, and mangosteen. My body seems to prefer rutin for the immediate effects of histamines: it works within minutes. I take each of them daily, as I'm constantly dealing w/ histamines, part of my genetic type.

@LynnJ. @madietodd madietodd, I thought of you in my early-morning thoughts. I have a better response today re carnitine. It's possible that you're one of the people for whom a different type would work better. I tried Acetyl-L-Carnitine (ALCAR) first, then carnitine bitartrate. Neither worked for me, but Fumarate did. It's awful to have a cupboard full of things that didn't work, but it's sometimes necessaary. I've just given away a couple big bags of things I tried.

But for both of you, there is a work-around for not tolerating supps. I take most of my aminos and minerals in footbaths. I use 1 in AM, again in PM, have been doing this for about a year. I don't need any greater amount than when I take them orally, soak for 15-20 minutes, and keep the gut happy.

Re licorice: this was my life-support system for about a year. I assume it was the same Italian doctor who's recommendations I followed. But I think it's also possible to over-stress your adrenals. Eventually I couldn't tolerate it, and then went to adrenal glandulars, which I used for about 2 years, and found a wonderful addition. Happily, I've just been able to discontinue them.

Thanks for clarification of potassium. I'm going to try the supplements for histamine. I have allergies running in my genes as well. One of my children has them bad, so whatever I learn, I try to pass on. Getting them all on mb12 & ab12 also.

I half-laughed when you said about the cupboard full of things that didn't work. I have a big box of things I tried & didn't work. Wish I had that $$ back.

I've heard of transdermal delivery of supplements - Dr. Myhill recommends. My stomach get touchy - which I think the allergy meds affect negatively. I end up drinking the real ginger ale. Helps a lot.

I talked to fibro doc about licorice, and he said he had a patient in there who took too much, and he sent him straight to the hospital - so I know you have to be careful with. But he also told me it's antiviral, which I never knew.

 

[LynnJ]

What did the licorice do that sent him to the hospital?

I know there's transdermal magnesium and potassium powder (for foot baths), so I may try those. Might still take some oral potassium, but... I dunno. I'm testing how I tolerate pouring the powder from the pills into my drinks rather than just swallowing said pills.

Hmmm. The dibencozide is the one that's good for muscle pain? I thought it was methyl B12, but I'm not positive. I'm taking both, though.

Ahmo, would you probably recommend the Rutin as the first thing to try?

Also, saint, I'm curious - how much B12 do you take?

My feet are so tingly today. Got some pins and needles too. At least it's not the unbearable burning, though. I know some people say that tingling can be a sign of the nerves healing, so who knows?

 

[maddietod]

@ahmo; thanks for your thoughts. I worked with methylation protocols for over a year and got no benefit, with or without the L-carnitine. If I start up again, I will try your ideas!

I was just curious why L-carnitine was considered foundational, and it looks like nobody knows.

 

[ahmo]

@saint, glad PeterPositive mentioned Vit C, I always forget it. C + Calcium help leach histamines out of the system. I take them in footbaths.

@LynnJ, I'm not sure how these three, rutin, royal jelly, mangosteen act. I think mangosteen is reocmmended for mast cell issues, which I have. I've been amazed at how effective, and how quickly, the rutin. Rutin and quercetin are the 2 things in the supplement Neuroprotek that pharmacologist and mast cell expert Dr. Theorharides designed to get into brain, co clearly it's got some sort of special role.

@madietodd, thanks for asking again. It sent me looking. So far, here's what I've found, from Fred.

You need to understand the stakes you are playing for here. Neurological damage is caused partly by lack of ATP production in the mitochondria of the brain. For your neurology to heal you have to first restore the energy production. L-carnitine and AdoCbl and MeCbl and l-methylfolate is needed for neuroblast formation for growing neurons.

Then it is AdoCbl and L-carnitine fumarate for the mitochondria. Of course you also will need to have MeCbl and l-methylfolate so the whole thing doesn’t deadlock from lack of methylation. It is a 4 way deadlock. If you are paying for it, an IF test is really a waste of money in my opinion. No matter what the results it makes no difference to what will might heal all the deficiency symptoms. Often with neurological damage, the longer it’s there the less of it heals and the rest is maintained in an equilibrium, in some degree of remission. The IF testt might tell you why you are having problems originally. The fix is the same. Replace it.

it is the adb12 that generates ATP in the mitochondria and whose lack can casue total fatigue, all sorts of muscle and neurological pain and so on. I cured myself of CFS and FMS and many more symptoms starting 9 years ago.

So let’s consider what carnitine does. First, some people have to have LCF, about 90% of us here with these for whom it makes a difference. About 10% have to have ALCAR. It transports fats to mitochondria. It, by demonstration on me and others, causes proliferation of mitochondria in conjunction with the other 3 items. It causes muscles to grow back. It causes osteoblast proliferation strengthening bone. It cause neuroblast formation, encouraging neuronal healing and growth. These are essential to healing and causes demands on Methylfolate and potassium as it encourages new cells to grow as well as more mitochondrial density producing more ATP.

I started with a 500mg dose and had to be peeled off the ceiling. I was quite deficient. It was key in my taking off 85 pounds of water and healing all levels. A person who has no deficiency will have no obvious reaction. It was almost made a vitamin but wasn’t because some people can make enough of the right kinds. Even if they had it would have been ALCAR and most of us would be out in the cold anyway. I backed off to 128mg. After a few months I could increase to 250mgl, then a few more months 500mg. That turned out to have peak effect and 1000mg did nothing more so I backed off to 500. If a person has anxiety and is overly risk adverse they may have a specific type of hypothesized damage to the limbic system in the brain and then they have hyper responses to less than 1mg of LCF. Such folks might need to microtitrate starting at 100mcg with Jarrow liquid carnitine. It really has nothing at all to do with detox and everything to do with neuronal damage from deficiency and restarting damaged or inflamed nerves with ATP generation which also is needed for dopamine synthesis.

 

[maddietod]

"A person who has no deficiency will have no obvious reaction. " This kind of statement always interests me. It seems possible that with our sensitive systems, we could also get reactions to things we're not deficient in, if they happen to trigger a cascade of reactions.

We could also get no reaction if we're deficient but the dose is too little to matter. Or if we're missing cofactors.

It sounds like the L-carnitine is useful for people with neurological damage, which Freddd had in obvious and very distressing amounts. So likely this supplement just doesn't apply to me.

Thanks for your research!

 

[saint]

What did the licorice do that sent him to the hospital?

I know there's transdermal magnesium and potassium powder (for foot baths), so I may try those. Might still take some oral potassium, but... I dunno. I'm testing how I tolerate pouring the powder from the pills into my drinks rather than just swallowing said pills.

Hmmm. The dibencozide is the one that's good for muscle pain? I thought it was methyl B12, but I'm not positive. I'm taking both, though.

Ahmo, would you probably recommend the Rutin as the first thing to try?

Also, saint, I'm curious - how much B12 do you take?

My feet are so tingly today. Got some pins and needles too. At least it's not the unbearable burning, though. I know some people say that tingling can be a sign of the nerves healing, so who knows?

I wasn't having a good day when I went to see fibro doc - so I don't remember exactly what he said the licorice did to the man that he sent to the hospital. I know he said he was "taking too much" - so I don't know how much "too much" is - but I could ask him when I go there for next appointment.

I've been taking several dropper-fulls a day of Progena (from Pureformulas) standardized 18-20% glycyrrhizin. The bottle says "Promotes healthy stomach, intestine, and lung function".

Fibro doc put me on 5 mg natural cortisol. You can get into REAL trouble with regular cortisol; one dr. put me on it and I developed "buffalo hump" - to add to my misery. I had to have it lipo-suctioned. I've been through the ringer.

I'm trying hard to heal, so I kind of jumped in to the B12: I took 10 mg. Enz. Therapy mb12 + 10 mg. Source Naturals dibencozide. That's what I took I think yesterday, and now today. But I'm trying to heal dr.-induced nerve damage as well - and read an article on ProHealth that large amounts can heal nerve damage.

I don't know if it's a reaction or what, but today I am dead tired - and feel down. I think this might be some of the symptoms of healing neurological damage. I get weary of spending all of my waking hours trying to fix myself.