Sodium salicylate inhibits mast cell degranulation

[Violeta]

This study shows that sodium salicylate inhibits mast cell degranulation.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2326792/

However, there are a lot of people with mast cell activation syndrome that report that salicylates cause histamine issues. I can't figure out why sodium salicylate has the opposite effect.

Anyone have an idea why that would be?

Post moved to mast cell forum.

 

[Sherlock]

Maybe it's different enough from aspirin so as not to provoke the allergic reaction?

How is sodium salicylate available, btw?

 

[Violeta]

Maybe it's different enough from aspirin so as not to provoke the allergic reaction?

How is sodium salicylate available, btw?

You have to make it yourself, or buy Alka Seltzer with aspirin in it. I read about sodium salicylate in a book form the early 1900's, then looked up how to make sodium salicylate. You mix equal parts of baking soda with an aspirin. So an aspirin mixed with 325gm of baking soda, which I think is a little less than an 1/8th of a tsp. If you add too much baking soda, that would be okay, because according to what I read at a website for a protocol for Lyme, baking soda neutralizes endotoxins, and endotoxins (LPS) cause degranulation. If you mix some extra lemon juice or citric acid and baking soda with your aspirin, you may get some extra good effect from the drink mix.

 

[Sherlock]

Here is a list of foods that contain salicylates. Salicylate sensitivity is rare. Many foods contain salicylates.
http://salicylatesensitivity.com/about/food-guide/

That guide is nice, considering that many other sources just list foods without ranking them according to concentration.

Once eosinophils are involved along with MCs, then that makes things even more complicated, because of the possibility of associated eosinophilic disorders.

 

[Violeta]

Sherlock, what are the eosinophilic disorders? Or is there a good site to read about it? I don't have a lot of time this morning and one good bit of information can really save a lot of time.

One thing that is not talked about with respect to salicylate sensitivity is the reason for it. There has to be a reason why some people react to salicylates and some people don't. A long time ago there was a BlogSpot by a young lady named Emma, I believe, who became very informed and helped others become very informed about how to very strictly avoid salicylates. At one point she said that her and her mother's salicylate sensitivity started after a viral or bacterial flu of some sort. To me that was a big clue, but I didn't know what to do with it. Many years later I read Haig's books about uric acid, and found out about uric acid, it's relationship to pathogens, and how salicylates affect the release of uric acid into the blood stream.

What I'm wondering this morning is why salicylates cause mast cell degranulation and why sodium salicylate does not. The salicylates in food don't come with bicarbonates, so they could cause annoying reactions.

I'm also wondering if salicylate sensitivity is an accurate sign of pathogen overload. Any clues?

 

[Lou]

You have to make it yourself, or buy Alka Seltzer with aspirin in it. I read about sodium salicylate in a book form the early 1900's, then looked up how to make sodium salicylate. You mix equal parts of baking soda with an aspirin. So an aspirin mixed with 325gm of baking soda, which I think is a little less than an 1/8th of a tsp. If you add too much baking soda, that would be okay, because according to what I read at a website for a protocol for Lyme, baking soda neutralizes endotoxins, and endotoxins (LPS) cause degranulation. If you mix some extra lemon juice or citric acid and baking soda with your aspirin, you may get some extra good effect from the drink mix.

Hi @Violeta,

I've had Lyme for two years, you'd think I'd already come across some connection with mast cell degranulation. Well, actually that's just one of my many blind spots. So, inhibiting degranulation may have benefits for someone with Lyme?

Seems you made a concoction of sodium salicylate, has it helped with Lyme symptoms?

 

[Violeta]

Hi Violeta,

I've had Lyme for two years, you'd think I'd already come across some connection with mast cell degranulation. Well, actually that's just one of my many blind spots. So, inhibiting degranulation may have benefits for someone with Lyme?

Seems you made a concoction of sodium salicylate, has it helped with Lyme symptoms?

I never would have thought, either, or even cared until recently when Vegas mentioned LPS, endotoxins from bacteria cell walls and I then found out how much damage it causes. Then right before Easter I got a really bad chest cold, sore throat, head congestion, and bloody nose. It seemed like a combination of allergies and bronchitis or pneumonia. That's when I started looking into histamine issues. And what does a bloody nose have to do with all that? When mast cells degranulate the give off not only histamines, but also heparin.

I just found this link: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC96436/

Inhibiting mast cell degranulation would and should be done by removing what is causing the degranulation. They are degranulating for a reason, and you have to get rid of the reason. LPS, lipopolysaccharides, from the cell wall of the bacteria, along with a calcium voltage, cause the degranulation. I have to look further, but I think the borrelia have lipoprotein instead of LPS, but either way, that study I linked said they do cause it.

So I have to look in to how the sodium salicylate inhibits degranulation. One place said that sodium bicarb neutralizes the bacterial toxins, but didn't mention the salicylate. The books about uric acid say sodium salicylate gets uric acid out of storage. I don't have any proof yet, but that might be why it helps.

It definitely reduces symptoms for me. It helped the sore throat and coughing. When I started taking a couple drops of teasel right before it, the symptoms started to fade away.

 

[Sherlock]

Sherlock, what are the eosinophilic disorders? Or is there a good site to read about it? I don't have a lot of time this morning and one good bit of information can really save a lot of time.

One thing that is not talked about with respect to salicylate sensitivity is the reason for it. There has to be a reason why some people react to salicylates and some people don't. A long time ago there was a BlogSpot by a young lady named Emma, I believe, who became very informed and helped others become very informed about how to very strictly avoid salicylates. At one point she said that her and her mother's salicylate sensitivity started after a viral or bacterial flu of some sort. To me that was a big clue, but I didn't know what to do with it. Many years later I read Haig's books about uric acid, and found out about uric acid, it's relationship to pathogens, and how salicylates affect the release of uric acid into the blood stream.

What I'm wondering this morning is why salicylates cause mast cell degranulation and why sodium salicylate does not. The salicylates in food don't come with bicarbonates, so they could cause annoying reactions.

I'm also wondering if salicylate sensitivity is an accurate sign of pathogen overload. Any clues?

@Violeta, there are many good videos from researchers/MDs on youtube.

Eve if you don't have any difficulty swallowing, it's still good to become aware of Eosinophilic Esophagitis in order to understand how WBCs act together. Worth at least that 1st 5 minute video. The kicker is that EoE is an emerging disease, not well understood, and is being newly thought of as perhaps really being centered on MCs and not on Eos (allergy related white cells). There is some (unknown) reason why some get Eos that aggregate where they shouldn't, and some don't.

I'd expect that allergy to salicylates begins the same as any other: a mistake.happens in the immune system such as when a real pathogen stimulates a valid immune response, but then those antibodies also bind to some harmless allergen.

I just looked briefly at your posted study. It might that sodium salicylate abolishes degranulation in the petri dish every in the presence of IgE -- but it would have the same bad effect in an actual allergic person as aspirin does.

My original idea that the molecule shape being different makes for a different effect is probably wrong, if all salicylates end up the same once in the stomach. I don't know.

I doubt that salicylate sensitivity reflects pathogen load - except that every time there's an infection, that is another opportunity for the immune system to make a mistake.

Maybe a small mistake wouldn't be noticed much, except when a person has MCs that fire way too easily - like nitroglycerin that has been heated

 

[Violeta]

Here is a list of foods that contain salicylates. Salicylate sensitivity is rare. Many foods contain salicylates.
http://salicylatesensitivity.com/about/food-guide/

That guide is nice, considering that many other sources just list foods without ranking them according to concentration.

Once eosinophils are involved along with MCs, then that makes things even more complicated, because of the possibility of associated eosinophilic disorders.

@Sherlock, thanks for that link. Lemon is only in the moderate group, but I think I'll start using lemon with baking soda in water instead of baking soda and aspirin. When you dissolve an aspirin, yikes, all this undissolved stuff floating in the water looks toxic. Lemon juice plus baking soda tastes better, too.

 

[Violeta]

@Violeta, there are many good videos from researchers/MDs on youtube.

Eve if you don't have any difficulty swallowing, it's still good to become aware of Eosinophilic Esophagitis in order to understand how WBCs act together. Worth at least that 1st 5 minute video. The kicker is that EoE is an emerging disease, not well understood, and is being newly thought of as perhaps really being centered on MCs and not on Eos (allergy related white cells). There is some (unknown) reason why some get Eos that aggregate where they shouldn't, and some don't.

I'd expect that allergy to salicylates begins the same as any other: a mistake.happens in the immune system such as when a real pathogen stimulates a valid immune response, but then those antibodies also bind to some harmless allergen.

I just looked briefly at your posted study. It might that sodium salicylate abolishes degranulation in the petri dish every in the presence of IgE -- but it would have the same bad effect in an actual allergic person as aspirin does.

My original idea that the molecule shape being different makes for a different effect is probably wrong, if all salicylates end up the same once in the stomach. I don't know.

I doubt that salicylate sensitivity reflects pathogen load - except that every time there's an infection, that is another opportunity for the immune system to make a mistake.

Maybe a small mistake wouldn't be noticed much, except when a person has MCs that fire way too easily - like nitroglycerin that has been heated

Thanks for the video, I'll watch it a little later.

I would have to find a person with salicylate allergy and then have them try sodium salicylate before I could come to the conclusion that they would have the same effect.

 

[Sherlock]

I would have to find a person with salicylate allergy and then have them try sodium salicylate before I could come to the conclusion that they would have the same effect.

Yes, exactly right. Please post back if you do

But, here is one case study wherein they acted pretty much the same:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8970436

And another, with FFT:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3049690/

If you want to inhibit MCs, then I'd look at quercetin. Here's an example: aspirin has the reputation of only partially abolishing the niacin flush. Quercetin does it almost completely. It's an experiment you can easily try.

Btw, I too have thin blood - I think from MC's heparin as you'd mentioned. I also have way too much trpytase at times, ostensibly the same source.

 

[Violeta]

@Sherlock, do you know why quercetin blocks a niacin flush? I did do that accidentally one time and wondered if I completely wasted the niacin.

I'm working on inhibiting MC's degranulation by getting rid of the infection and metals that cause it.

It sure would be interesting to see if sodium salicylate would help your fingers

 

[Sherlock]

@Sherlock, do you know why quercetin blocks a niacin flush? I did do that accidentally one time and wondered if I completely wasted the niacin.

I'm working on inhibiting MC's degranulation by getting rid of the infection and metals that cause it.

It sure would be interesting to see if sodium salicylate would help your fingers

Just going from memory: quercetin increases gAMP which opposes cAMP. cAMP is the second messenger that takes the signal from Ca++ influx and transmits that to whatever process causes degranulation. But then there is at least one other pathway that is discussed. (That's why I've learned to not care much about pathways, there is always something yet unknown and nothing is understood well. All that really matter is the outcome.)

MDs have long advocated using aspirin to inhibit the PGD2 that sets off the flush. Supposedly, that doesn't reduce the supposed CVD benefit, which would presumably tied to increasing HDL.

I'd guess that sodium salicylate would work the same in me as aspirin. I don't have any aspirin sensitivity. But I'll try it with baking soda next time, just to see. I'll let you know

I just noticed that the discussion in this paper:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3049690/pdf/1751016.pdf

is saying that usually people who are allergic to aspirin can take non-acelyated salicylates like sodium salicylate
- and that one possible reason for aspirin allergy is the shape after all, being acylated.

 

[Violeta]

So niacin flush is mast cell degranulation????? And it causes Ca++ influx??? I had no idea!

 

[Sherlock]

So niacin flush is mast cell degranulation????? And it causes Ca++ influx??? I had no idea!

There were times when my systolic BP would drop 20 points after niacin, from histamine mediated vasodilation. Or I'd feel difficulty breathing from broncho constriction (histamine and leukotrienes).

But PGD2 is also involved in the flush. I suppose that technically that is not released via degranulation, since prostaglandins are not preformed and waiting in granules but are instead produced de novo upon MC activation. Supposedly.

Calcium causes MC activation, not vice versa.

 

[Lou]

Hmm, this is getting interesting. I, too, have developed very thin blood and had no idea of its cause until reading here about degranulation and heparin.

While Sherlock and Violeta discuss (benefitting us all, I'm sure) some of the finer points of mast cell degranulation I have some 'Simple Simon' questions about taking sodium salicylate:

The 1:1 ratio doesn't apply if you switch aspirin for lemon juice, right?
Best taken when? On an empty stomach or with meal? Anyone know, have a guess?
@Violeta You found an aluminum free baking soda or just not concerned because of small dose?

 

[Violeta]

@Lou, do you know why your mast cells might be degranulating? Sodium salicylate does interfere, but I don't know if it's because it deals with the cause or not. For example, I think I have the problem because of Lyme and possibly a coinfection. Calcium is required for degranulation, but I a fairly sure you need something else along with it. So far the only thing I've read about is when it happens with endotoxins.

The person who told me about lemon juice and baking soda said that it chelates calcium, so that might be how it works.

The lemon juice + baking soda is either 1/2 - 1 whole lemon with enough baking soda so that it no longer tastes acidic. Maybe 1/2 tsp. I only use 1/2 lemon.

 

[Lou]

@Lou, do you know why your mast cells might be degranulating? Sodium salicylate does interfere, but I don't know if it's because it deals with the cause or not. For example, I think I have the problem because of Lyme and possibly a coinfection. Calcium is required for degranulation, but I a fairly sure you need something else along with it. So far the only thing I've read about is when it happens with endotoxins.

The person who told me about lemon juice and baking soda said that it chelates calcium, so that might be how it works.

The lemon juice + baking soda is either 1/2 - 1 whole lemon with enough baking soda so that it no longer tastes acidic. Maybe 1/2 tsp. I only use 1/2 lemon.

Well, I have Lyme and Babesia, guess those would be prime suspects. But maybe I don't fully understand mast cell degranulation. I suspect it because of the many substances (herbs, vits, meds, etc) that help initially, sometimes spectacularly, then lose effect or even backfire, making things worse.

And now, my thin blood can possibly be explained by heparin release from degranulation as well. There again, 'a little knowledge can screw you up' ,and maybe I'm just confusing things. Think what I was thinking was, if degranulation is increased by some aspect of Lyme and that makes me worse, and sodium salicylate inhibits something that makes me worse, well then, let's have some sodium salicylate.

 

[Violeta]

Well, I have Lyme and Babesia, guess those would be prime suspects. But maybe I don't fully understand mast cell degranulation. I suspect it because of the many substances (herbs, vits, meds, etc) that help initially, sometimes spectacularly, then lose effect or even backfire, making things worse.

And now, my thin blood can possibly be explained by heparin release from degranulation as well. There again, 'a little knowledge can screw you up' ,and maybe I'm just confusing things. Think what I was thinking was, if degranulation is increased by some aspect of Lyme and that makes me worse, and sodium salicylate inhibits something that makes me worse, well then, let's have some sodium salicylate.

 

[Violeta]

Yes, I think that's a good reason to take it. But another good reason to take sodium salicylate is that for some reason it gets toxic uric acid out of the body. Maybe the two reasons coincide, and actually maybe getting the uric acid out helps get out pathogens. That's what I read in Alexander Haig's book on uric acid, anyway.

One herb that I started making into a tea and drinking just two days ago is chanca piedra. It helps clean out the liver and kidneys, and then the info at rain tree.com says that it's antiviral and antibacterial. I put a couple of drops of teasel in there to kill the pathogens. Whenever I have some annoying symptom from maybe herxing, I take some sodium salicylate. I'm feeling better, but still incredibly tired.