The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

[NattieC]

Quite simply, if you are feeling worse and the effects are seemingly intensifying, you will want to cut back, dramatically. An initial "honeymoon" period is very possible, in fact, I would say that was how I would characterize my experience. During this early phase you are reaping the rewards that commensal organisms provide, without the full consequences of the impending immune stimulation and the associated endotoxin mobilization.

Imagine if each episode of RS supplementation brought about tiny changes in the microbiota until you reached an important threshold wherein some environmental variable changed just enough to allow for a particular species to survive and replicate more vigorously. Unfortunately, that species also had the ability to displace pathogens whose cell walls are composed of highly toxic materials. In a healthy bowel, these lysed cell wall particles would remain in the bowel and the relatively high concentration of commensal organisms would mitigate the effects of these endotoxins.

I am not sure if there is any "turning back." The first step is to discontinue the catalyst for these changes. The second step is to establish what can be done to ameliorate your symptoms. It's hard to offer advice about this with limited information.

Thanks, @Vegas - it has felt for the last ten days like my immune system is doing what it periodically likes to do more of, only more so and for longer without respite. I've read that the malaise is caused by cytokines.

So I should cut back on the RS? It's bad to ride it out? I take your point about the threshold but shouldn't the RS be making my gut healthier and more able to deal with the endotoxins? I had thought the RS supplementation was a long-term thing to supplement what's missing in our modern diet.

I have a feeling I'm missing something...

 

[snowathlete]

I've been taking potato starch for a few days now. Tollerating it well so far. I'm at about 1.5 tbs now and not noticing anything really. I have recently ended 10 months of abx so my cages are likely empty or close to empty in many cases. I've taken a uBiome test but the results will take some time.
Throughout the abx period, I took some probiotics and since ending I have increased my probiotics and prebiotic fibres significantly. I didn't do well on kefir (coconut not dairy) but have just started homemade saurkraut and that seems absolutely fine - perhaps it was the yeasts in the kefir?
Anyway, the potato starch seems to be fine and I plan to keep on taking it for some time as part of my effort to rebuild my gut flora.

I'm looking at where to source more PS cheaply in the UK. I know there are some earlier posts on this. I contacted Rakusen and they say "it is made from raw potatoes and is pure raw potato starch. Heating is involved in the drying stage." I guess I need to ask to what degree they heat it? Does that matter?

I've also seen Econa brand which looks like it is starch, but apparently it contains sulphites (used as a bleaching & preserving agent.) I wonder if they all do, including Bob's (I've sent them an email to ask) and will ask Rakusen too, but I am keen to avoid these as much as possible as I find additives cause my UC to flare. Anyone know about Kockens, whether it contains sulphites?

 

[Ripley]

I guess I need to ask to what degree they heat it? Does that matter?

Heating does matter. If the drying process is above 120ºF—140ºF we would expect a good deal of the RS to turn into glycemic starch.

What you are looking for when you buy starch is making what is known as a "non-newtonian fluid". What that means is that you can mix it up in a glass of water and within a few minutes virtually all of the starch will sink to the bottom of the glass. Sinking starch is a telltale sign of good RS content — as RS does not dissolve in water.

The gold standard test would be to test your blood sugar (if you can) after taking 1 Tbsp of more. We would expect to see a slight bump in your blood sugar after taking RS (maybe ~10 mg/dL). But if you see a significant jump, that could very well be a sign that you are ingesting glycemic starch.

 

[Violeta]

@Violeta hope you post that POTS video in a POTS section on PR. lol - it was great - thanks.

I did go ahead and post it over the in the POTS forum. 23 views and no one commented or even indicated that they liked it yet!

 

[rosie26]

I did go ahead and post it over the in the POTS forum. 23 views and no one commented or even indicated that they liked it yet!

l'm glad you put it there anyway.

 

[Vegas]

@Vegas, you often talk of phospholipids. How much of these do we need? Any dose suggestion? Do you supplement phosphatidylcholine (PC)? A few caps a day would be enough?

I wrote out a detailed response, too detailed actually, but I guess I didn't save this. Anyway, I'll give you the brief version:

Phospholipid supplementation i is very individual since phospholipid synthesis is largely tied to methylation and acetylation reactions, which are quite clearly globally downregulated. In this regard conversion and interconversion of these lipids and precusors is going to be influence by the cofactors, end products, metabolites, etc. that are created as as result of choline metabolism. Once we get our hands in there with methyl donors and the like, the analysis gets a lot more complicated.

As a starting point, consider PC, not as part of a complex or lecithin. Take as much as seems to provide benefits, but first supplement with the other raw materials used in phospholipid synthesis: uridine (which you have covered) and Omega 3's. I recommend trying to titrate up to 1.5 grams of EPA/DHA, but this is an arbitrary figure based upon personal experience.

Regardless, you will find a number of new studies involving the use of DHA and to a lesser extent, EPA, to treat, what I think are core features of ME/CFS. One of the most interesting that I saw recently involved protecting against the effects of ethanol. The type of damage and metabolic pathways that we are very vulnerable to.

This is very effective at reducing inflammation and depressive symptoms, but I think it is dose dependent. If you are not taking 1.5 grams or thereabouts, it is especially important to titrate, especially if you take Omega's with other fat-soluble vitamins as some can react adversely to these and they will induce their own immunostimulation.

Phosphatidylcholine was anecdotally most effective at suppressing liver pain, which I could readily induce, and I think is clearly caused by endotoxins. Also, DMG, has been very beneficial, consistently.

Ultimately, I would look enhanced Bifidobacterial synthesis of these phospholipids to play a large part in correcting the inflammatory condition. I may be wrong, but I believe the Bifidobacteria will use the monophostate ester from the amylopectin to synthesize these lipids. Until then, lots of lipids are good. These are the only real antidote to LPS. So PS as tolerated, especially if choline is limited in the diet, and perhaps you want to try to up your Omega 3 concentration.

 

[Vegas]

The past couple of days I've been wondering if the vagus nerve is involved in the reaction to RS. What lead me in that direction was taking a small dose of konjac caused a reaction through the core of my body that most assuredly had to be due to one common denominator. The only thing I could think of was the vagus nerve.

I realize this is kind of vague, but I'll try to find out more after work today.

This also may tie into histamines, because I am seeing quite a few people on the histamine FB page who are describing something similar to what I felt.

Someone just provided me with this lovely link:

http://alford.grimtrojan.com/Mast_Cells_GI_Motility_Disease.htm

Don't think the vagus nerve is directly involved, but changing acetylcholine concentrations will effect the parasympathetic/sympathetic balance.

 

[Vegas]

Thanks, @Vegas - it has felt for the last ten days like my immune system is doing what it periodically likes to do more of, only more so and for longer without respite. I've read that the malaise is caused by cytokines.

So I should cut back on the RS? It's bad to ride it out? I take your point about the threshold but shouldn't the RS be making my gut healthier and more able to deal with the endotoxins? I had thought the RS supplementation was a long-term thing to supplement what's missing in our modern diet.

I have a feeling I'm missing something...

Yes, your GIT is likely moving in the right direction, but if you previously only mobilized a tiny fraction of endotoxins, it wouldn't have been that noticeable. In this respect, some of the most challenging symptoms don't surface until the commensal bacteria are in place to both stimulate and passivate the endotoxin response.

So now, you have slightly improved the intestinal integrity and your microbial profile, but the immune response is more robust because it takes only a small concentration of endotoxins in the lymphatics, liver, and bloodstream to create a very prominent immune response. The intestinal integrity and immune response have to be correlated to some degree, but clearly your improvement in the intestinal epithelium has not reached its potential. I wish there was an easy, linear path, but I don't know how to achieve this. If you have extra-GIT infections, then this complicates matters.

Liver pain, body aches, many of the GI symptoms, etc., these were foreign to me, until my immune system was restored to such an extent that I started to mobilize these endotoxins. It took a long time to reach this stage. RS, though, I think, has the potential to significantly shorten the process.

 

[bertiedog]

If you have gut issues, it can. As I've been saying, RS is useful as a diagnostic tool. RS without bacteria is an inert substance in the digestive tract. So, if you don't react well to RS, it means that there is bacteria in your gut that is doing something unpleasant with it (to oversimplify). Occasionally there can be die-off but that seems to be less prevalent. More than likely it means "viper-filled" cages — to use a zoo analogy. Some people have "empty" zoo cages who are missing keystone bacteria, like L Plantarum and other SBOs, etc.

Btw, when I say "RS" I'm not just referring to PS. You should also be trying green banana flour and/or green plantain flour and perhaps other prebiotics (there are many) to see if any are well tolerated.

Almost everyone, unless they have a perfect gut, will need some form of probiotics to help them make the most of RS and other prebiotics.

What I have found since taking RS for about 5 weeks now (about 2 -3 tablespoons daily) is that it has got rid of the constipation I tended to suffer with on many days but on some days each week I have had very loose stools several times a day that are the colour of diahorrea.

I have had 2 CDSA done over a period of 5 years. The first one showed a yeast issue but not Candida and the 2nd one showed a high amount of bad bacteria. I had a good level of some of the good bacteria but not all. I remember on both of them I had a lowish amount of butyrate.

I haven't had any sign of die off or anything like that. It hasn't made me ill at all just upset my gut. The probiotic I have been taking is a mixture of Acidophilus and Bifdobacterium, Lacto Bulgaricus and Lacto Salavarius but total is only a total of 12 billion daily.

What I have been doing is to stop the RS for a day and then my gut settles down all for it to build up again over several days.

I only eat around 70 g carbs daily because I don't do well on more than that (blood sugar issues tend to go a bit too high probably because I am steroid dependent). Any advice please.

Thanks
Pam

 

[adreno]

As a starting point, consider PC, not as part of a complex or lecithin. Take as much as seems to provide benefits, but first supplement with the other raw materials used in phospholipid synthesis: uridine (which you have covered) and Omega 3's. I recommend trying to titrate up to 1.5 grams of EPA/DHA, but this is an arbitrary figure based upon personal experience.

Thanks, Vegas. I have been using Triple Lecithin so far, but I have now ordered some polyenylphosphatidylcholine, which should be more potent. I plan to take 3 caps of 900mg PPC daily. As I take CDP-choline already, uridine should be covered (I guess this is what you were referring to).

For fish oil, at the moment I take 2000mg salmon oil. I have had negative reactions to high EPA doses in the past, perhaps because it suppresses the HPA. Fish oil also seem to enhance B cell activity, increase interferon-gamma and lymphocyte proliferation, all of which is probably bad for ME/CFS. There is also the worry of enhanced oxidative stress from lipid peroxidation. Nevertheless, I might try to increase my DHA intake.

Talking about methylation, lately what started as a B12 deficiency has turned into a folate defiency. I now find that I need around 8mg of 5MTHF daily. If not I get anemia type symptoms (weakness, dizzines, coldness, tachycardia, shortness of breath, headache, tingling, anxiety).

 

[Vegas]

Thanks, Vegas. I have been using Triple Lecithin so far, but I have now ordered some polyenylphosphatidylcholine, which should be more potent. I plan to take 3 caps of 900mg PPC daily. As I take CDP-choline already, uridine should be covered (I guess this is what you were referring to).

For fish oil, at the moment I take 2000mg salmon oil. I have had negative reactions to high EPA doses in the past, perhaps because it suppresses the HPA. Fish oil also seem to enhance B cell activity, which I am not sure is good in ME/CFS. But nevertheless, I might try to increase my DHA intake.

Talking about methylation, lately what started as a B12 deficiency has turned into a folate defiency. I now find that I need around 8mg of 5MTHF daily. If not I get anemia type symptoms (weakness, dizzines, coldness, tachycardia, shortness of breath, headache, tingling, anxiety).

Nothing wrong with lecithin, I just think the PC is more readily tolerated. I'm having to generalize.

Same thing with DHA/EPA. I think DHA may be more useful for ME/CFS, but didn't feel like going into a more detailed analysis. If you feel better with DHA, de-emphasize the EPA.

Actually, you may have created this problem thinking you need more MB12. The methyl donors will, for example stimulate PEMT, but this pathway requires DHA. DHA is utilized in the PEMT pathway, with this methyltransferase reaction mobilizing the DHA to be taken up by peripheral tissues. I know for a fact that PC supplementation will not correct this, so

Uridine originates from the one carbon metabolism, so tetrahydrofolate would be the cofactor here.

Sounds like you have too many supplements.

 

[adreno]

Actually, you may have created this problem thinking you need more MB12. The methyl donors will, for example stimulate PEMT, but this pathway requires DHA. DHA is utilized in the PEMT pathway, with this methyltransferase reaction mobilizing the DHA to be taken up by peripheral tissues.

I don't think so. The liver pain started when I was taking much lower doses of methyl donors, and increasing those hasn't made the pain worse. And PC definitely takes care of the liver pain. In fact, now that I take higher doses of b12/folate, I seem to tolerate the PC much better.

 

[NattieC]

Yes, your GIT is likely moving in the right direction, but if you previously only mobilized a tiny fraction of endotoxins, it wouldn't have been that noticeable. In this respect, some of the most challenging symptoms don't surface until the commensal bacteria are in place to both stimulate and passivate the endotoxin response.

So now, you have slightly improved the intestinal integrity and your microbial profile, but the immune response is more robust because it takes only a small concentration of endotoxins in the lymphatics, liver, and bloodstream to create a very prominent immune response. The intestinal integrity and immune response have to be correlated to some degree, but clearly your improvement in the intestinal epithelium has not reached its potential. I wish there was an easy, linear path, but I don't know how to achieve this. If you have extra-GIT infections, then this complicates matters.

Liver pain, body aches, many of the GI symptoms, etc., these were foreign to me, until my immune system was restored to such an extent that I started to mobilize these endotoxins. It took a long time to reach this stage. RS, though, I think, has the potential to significantly shorten the process.

Thanks - that makes sense.

It seems weird that my orthostatic intolerance, which is the main symptom that seemed to be lifting, has come back in such full force. I had thought that perhaps my ANS was healing but perhaps that's a naive way to think of it.

Nothing is ever easy, is it?!

 

[Vegas]

I don't think so. The liver pain started when I was taking much lower doses of methyl donors, and increasing those hasn't made the pain worse. And PC definitely takes care of the liver pain. In fact, now that I take higher doses of b12/folate, I seem to tolerate the PC much better.

Well, I am talking about effects in different tissues, as I noted a lack of DHA could effect the peripheral tissues, yet you are probably right, that this is not the causative factor in your situation

I certainly disagree with you, though, that the effects of taking those doses of methylfolate and cobalamin aren't perpetuating the problem. I see this everyday on this forum--that they can resolve one problem while creating another. I make this mistake myself sometime, and I don't say this passing judgment. We all do what we can to try to feel better.

O.K., so my next thought is that weakness, tachycardia, fatigue, anxiety, coldness & SOB sounds like inhibition of acetylcholine synthesis. Choline can be used by the Kennedy pathway, methylation reactions, or for incorporation to form acetylcholine. By the way histone deacetylation is largely what governs the response to LPS. I think overdriving methylation would inhibit acetylcholine synthesis, but I may be wrong.

 

[Vegas]

Thanks - that makes sense.

It seems weird that my orthostatic intolerance, which is the main symptom that seemed to be lifting, has come back in such full force. I had thought that perhaps my ANS was healing but perhaps that's a naive way to think of it.

Nothing is ever easy, is it?!

Unfortunately, expect some symptom vacillation. RS and the organisms this nurtures are changing problems at the heart of the pathophysiology, I think, and there will be some give and take when your immune system confronts the endotoxin. As I just wrote about acetylcholine, which you may recognize as a neurotransmitter involved in regulation of the autonomic nervous system, there can be what is essentially, symptomatically, exactly what you don't want. The energy metabolism and thus acetylation and methylation will be transiently suppressed to protect you. I will have to think of a better way to describe this because I think this runs counter to traditional thought.

 

[snowathlete]

Bob's got back to me about their starch.
We do not do sulfite testing, but our suppliers assure us that the below starches are under 10 parts per million and therefore can be declared sulfite free according to the Federal Government.


All the below information is direct from our suppliers and the best information we can obtain about sulfites in the starches.
Here is a list of starches that we offer and the status of sulfites in the starch:

• Arrowroot Starch - No added sulfites
• Potato Starch - Sodium Sulfite used as a reducing agent in processing (residue in final product max 10ppm)
• Cornstarch - Contains less than 10 parts per million of sulfites
• Tapioca Starch - Contains no sulfites. Less than 10 ppm

So probably they all do but it's such low amounts that it probably isn't a real issue for most people, including me, which is good.

 

[maddietod]

I see Dr. Rey in Florida (Nancy Klimas' clinic). In October I got viral, NK cell, and cytokine testing, but couldn't start anti-viral treatment for complicated reasons.

I took potato starch for 4 weeks and got very sick for a month - I'm still not completely out of it.

I took antibiotics a few weeks ago, and apparently wiped out my gut microbes, as I got thrush.

I think I have an interesting n=1 possibility. As soon as I stop coughing, I'm starting plantain flour. I'm already taking 4 probiotics, hoping to replace everything important. I'm going back to Florida to get retested in June.

I sent in a ubiome sample a few weeks ago (before the antibiotics).

This looks like an opportunity to see if RS + probiotics has any effect on viral activity. It's a pretty messy test, as my baseline labs are already 6 months old. But it might be interesting.

My only ideas are to move slowly with the starch while being very proactive with the probiotics. I'm taking Prescript Assist, Primal Defense Ultra, Probiotic-3, and Vitacost 15-35. I take one of each daily.

Has anybody got advice for me about how to optimize my chances of naturally boosting my immune system? I had great notes from here and FTA, but my new computer failed last week, and part of the failure is that it was only pretending to back up. I lost all of my notes.

 

[jstefl]

We are all different madietodd, but there is no way that I could handle that many probiotics at one time.

I find that I do better with staying consistent with the starch, and backing off on the probiotics as needed. The prescript assist is one of the probiotics that I am taking, but more than three days in a row, and the results turn negative for me.

John

 

[Sushi]

...
I took potato starch for 4 weeks and got very sick for a month - I'm still not completely out of it.

I took antibiotics a few weeks ago, and apparently wiped out my gut microbes, as I got thrush.
...

Was that a broad spectrum antibiotic that did that?

Sushi

 

[Sidereal]

This study published just yesterday is making the Facebook rounds amongst RS skeptics. Free full text is available.

Gut microbiome of the Hadza hunter-gatherers

Human gut microbiota directly influences health and provides an extra means of adaptive potential to different lifestyles. To explore variation in gut microbiota and to understand how these bacteria may have co-evolved with humans, here we investigate the phylogenetic diversity and metabolite production of the gut microbiota from a community of human hunter-gatherers, the Hadza of Tanzania. We show that the Hadza have higher levels of microbial richness and biodiversity than Italian urban controls. Further comparisons with two rural farming African groups illustrate other features unique to Hadza that can be linked to a foraging lifestyle. These include absence of Bifidobacterium and differences in microbial composition between the sexes that probably reflect sexual division of labour. Furthermore, enrichment in Prevotella, Treponema and unclassified Bacteroidetes, as well as a peculiar arrangement of Clostridiales taxa, may enhance the Hadza’s ability to digest and extract valuable nutrition from fibrous plant foods.