B-12 - The Hidden Story

[Leopardtail]

do mb12 sublinguals convert to hydroxy b12 too when exposed to light?
Or only the injections?

BM12 must be stored in the dark. Most good quality suppliers indicate this on the packaging.

 

[Leopardtail]

@Radio
Regarding the strange urine smell I might be saying this out of pure ignorance, or perhaps someone else already said that elsewhere. According to the book "Potassium Nutrition" dietary sulfites (fermented and pickled foods, wine, beer, gelatin, baked goods etc) degrade vitamin B1 in the intestines and diuretics cause loss of B1.

I have noticed the strange urine smell when I take gel caps of fish oil and Gamma E Complex and when I read the mentioned book I thought the smell was due to loss of B1 in the urine. Right now I am off both supplements, but I do need the vit E badly and am considering to open the gel cap and pour it on my salad. Regarding the fish oil, I will have to replenish my copper levels before reintroducing it.

izzy

Gods,

if your fish oil smells that way, its degraded fresh enough fish oil does not smell that way.

Leo.

 

[Leopardtail]

I think niacin at bedtime helps me sleep better. I tend to sleep poorly when methylation is cranking...
The timing of methylation supports has a big effect on me. Recently I changed around the timing of my lecithin supplement and got a huge response.

@howirecovered I'd like to hear more about that lecithin timing and it's effect

 

[Leopardtail]

I think my b12 deficiency symptoms come back when I take niacin.

Processing niacin requires methylgroups, but it is essential netherless to good health. Try altering the timing (or lowering the dose) e.g. taking at night. Alternatively you could take NADH but that is more expensive (by some way).

 

[Leopardtail]

Hello all,

Can anyone tell me how important it is to start the protocol (quoted below, posted by @Gloria H on P141 of this thread) in the order it is listed?

Are the doses listed the starting doses or the doses we are aiming to build up to?
If they are the starting doses, what are we aiming to build up to?
If they are the final doses, what do we start off at?

The reason I ask is that I am currently on 5mg of Methyl B12 and have been for a couple of years (not that I have noticed any difference from it). Do I stop the Methyl B12 I am currently on and start over in the order listed below?

A was also taking Acetyl L-carnitine (alcar) but I stopped that about 5 days ago as I suspected it was interfering with my levothyroxine absorption. I do feel a bit better but am not sure if it because of stopping the alcar or not. What are the chances of the L-carnitine fumarate interfering with my levothyroxine? Does taking it in conjunction with the other methylation supplements prevent this from happening?

I would appreciate your thoughts on this @Freddd

Thanks

Myrtle

Myrtle,

no carnitine should not affect absorption of levothyroxine but it might be worth taking it at a different time of day? What ALCAR will do it improve the operation of your Parasympathetic (calming) nervous system and this might prevent you getting a 'buzz' from the thyroxine.

Leo

 

[Gondwanaland]

Gods,

if your fish oil smells that way, its degraded fresh enough fish oil does not smell that way.

Leo.

The strongest smell comes from the Gamma E Complex, I tried taking them separetely. Next I will try to take the vit E without the gel cap.

izzy

 

[Leopardtail]

The strongest smell comes from the Gamma E Complex, I tried taking them separetely. Next I will try to take the vit E without the gel cap.

izzy

best of luck

 

[whodathunkit]

@Leopardtail: so taking NADH doesn't use up the methylgroups that processing niacin does, and is therefore "safer" for undermethylators than regular niacin or niacinimide? Even a little bit of niacin seems to crash me so I avoid it but I want to make getting enough and the right balance of B's.

 

[Leopardtail]

@Leopardtail: so taking NADH doesn't use up the methylgroups that processing niacin does, and is therefore "safer" for undermethylators than regular niacin or niacinimide? Even a little bit of niacin seems to crash me so I avoid it but I want to make getting enough and the right balance of B's.

When the Niacin crashes you which exact symptoms increase?

Basically yes, that's about it. NADH has been found to be helpful for circa 30% of people with CFS so it's definitely worth a try (especially if you are already using Ribose + ALCAR).

Processing basic Niacin or Niacinamide in the liver consumes Methyl groups, which is why it's used for over-methylators. To great extent NADH avoids that.

The silly thing is that to methylate nautrally in the first place you need NAD(P)H which is made from Niacin - a weird one isn't it? All B-Vitamins are a balancing act, essential to life but harmful at high enough doses - it's just a question of finding the right doses for you.

Alternatively you can taking a supplement with basic Niacin and supplement extra 5-MTHF to supply the necessary methyl groups.

 

[howirecovered]

@howirecovered I'd like to hear more about that lecithin timing and it's effect

since I am sensitive to lecithin, I have just found it's important that I keep it spread out during the day - so I take some during the middle of the night, some at breakfast and some at dinner. If I let it bunch up and take too much in too short a time, the side effects hit me...

 

[howirecovered]

detox reaction

I've been following the Fred protocol for more than a year now at the same time that I pursue frequent dose chelation. I am a strong believer in the 'startup reaction' concept and am still titrating up my methylation supplements. Currently take 4 mg folate, 4 mg adb12 and 6 mg b12 per day along with all the other supports.

Just wanted to share that I had a very clear detox symptom a few days ago when I increased from 5 mg to 6 mg of B12. Over the past year I had done my B12 increases much more slowly. This time I just felt like I could handle a big jump. I was right - I did handle it well but in addition to the usual startup effects, I experienced significantly increased tinnitus which is a very common side effect of chelation.

In fact, I experienced the same increase in tinnitus three weeks prior during a DMPS chelation round. So, as a result of this experience, I am personally very satisfied that ramping up methylation is also firing up my detoxification system and helping to drain my toxic swamp. I have always found it remarkable that the methylation startup symptoms are so similar to chelation side effects in my case and now I'm confident I know the reason why.

I wanted to share this because I know it's a somewhat unsettled question as to how this all works.

 

[Leopardtail]

since I am sensitive to lecithin, I have just found it's important that I keep it spread out during the day - so I take some during the middle of the night, some at breakfast and some at dinner. If I let it bunch up and take too much in too short a time, the side effects hit me...

@howirecovered could you be more specific about symptoms you experienced (I understand if its too personal) it would be useful to know what side effects occur if people take too much. There is not a lot of info out there on Selenium. I just found out today I have very low seleium hence it's of particular relevance.

 

[howirecovered]

@howirecovered could you be more specific about symptoms you experienced (I understand if its too personal) it would be useful to know what side effects occur if people take too much. There is not a lot of info out there on Selenium. I just found out today I have very low seleium hence it's of particular relevance.

I'm not following... What's the connection between selenium and lecithin?
When I take lecithin, it seems to accelerate my methylation, I think because it's a methyl donor. The symptoms seem to be very similar to folate for me - slow thinking, sometimes lightheaded, frontal headaches, some bloating, dry lips and maybe eyes, generally feeling crappy almost like I had a mild flu, very warm in the evening...

 

[whodathunkit]

@Leopardtail: symptoms from niacin overdose include headache, brain fog, GROUCHY mood , angular cheilitis, etc. Niacin always made me feel like crap, even before I started methylation supps.

I'll try some NADH and see how it goes. Thanks!

 

[Leopardtail]

I'm not following... What's the connection between selenium and lecithin?
When I take lecithin, it seems to accelerate my methylation, I think because it's a methyl donor. The symptoms seem to be very similar to folate for me - slow thinking, sometimes lightheaded, frontal headaches, some bloating, dry lips and maybe eyes, generally feeling crappy almost like I had a mild flu, very warm in the evening...

Sorry foggy moment (still have 'em).... mixed the two up...
The most obvious benefit of lecithin is the Phosphatidylcholine it contains - that's reputed to improve membrane diffusion of nutrients thus meaning all your other stuff works much better. All that MeB12 etc you are taking may be getting into your cells more effectively. I have heard rumours bacteria can convert it to Betaine, but not seen the science.

 

[Leopardtail]

@Leopardtail: symptoms from niacin overdose include headache, brain fog, GROUCHY mood , angular cheilitis, etc. Niacin always made me feel like crap, even before I started methylation supps.

I'll try some NADH and see how it goes. Thanks!

Bear in mind too that B-vitamins taken separately can cause havoc. One B-Vit can cause deficits in another if not balanced by dose.

 

[howirecovered]

Sorry foggy moment (still have 'em).... mixed the two up...
The most obvious benefit of lecithin is the Phosphatidylcholine it contains - that's reputed to improve membrane diffusion of nutrients thus meaning all your other stuff works much better. All that MeB12 etc you are taking may be getting into your cells more effectively. I have heard rumours bacteria can convert it to Betaine, but not seen the science.

Still so sensitive to methylation supplements after a year makes me think about what a long long process this is! guessing I have a couple more years to go.

 

[whodathunkit]

@Leopardtail: thanks, I'm aware. I have been taking the active forms of other major B's that you find in a complex separately, because I couldn't find a complex without niacin, and half a high-quality B complex (Douglas Labs) was what shut me down in the first place.

Thing that bugs me most is I can't find a panthenine (active form of B5) in any other than a gargantuan dose.

Any suggestions for a good B complex all active forms including the NAD(H)?

 

[Leopardtail]

@whodathunkit - I could not find a B-complex that was purely active all contained at least some Niacin or Niacinamide. There are a couple of supplement on iHerb that have mixed Niacinamde and NAD+

BTW was it true Niacin or Niacinamide in your supplements and do you know what your Ammonia levels are like?

What's your Methyl status like? Do you have specific SNPs? How much are you taking?

I couldn't find low dose B5 either, only get it as powder (I have pharmacists scales).

 

[whodathunkit]

@Leopardtail said:

"BTW was it true niacin or niacinimide in your supplements"
I honestly don't have a clue. It was a Douglas Labs B-complex, so I assume it was good quality. Certainly it cost enough. It was all active forms except the niacinimide.

"Do you know what your ammonia levels are like?"
Again, no clue. Testing them is a thought. I'm still a big neophyte so not sure where ammonia fits into all this yet. I'll do some research, but off the top of your head is there a standard test or cohort of tests that pinpoint ammonia levels?

"What's your methyl status like? Do you have specific SNP's?"
I haven't had my genetics tested yet, although my hematologist yesterday ordered the test for MTHFR defects. We'll see what comes back. I'm thinking of getting 23&me but not sure about it yet. I'm not sure I want to know some things the test may tell me.

I go on my symptoms right now. I've been messing about with supplements for nearly 30 years so have a decent background in listening to my body for feedback. It's been working pretty well although there's lots more I need to learn and I do acknowledge that knowing about specific snp's would provide good guideposts. Just gotta decide whether or not getting a complete genetic test is for me. I'm leaning towards doing it but just have to resolve a few other things in my head (like potential long-term security concerns regarding genetic data).

"How much are you taking?"
Well, I'm not at home to look at my bottles, but off the top of my head I remember it's about 30-35mg active riboflavin (5-phosphate-riboflavin, I believe, but can't remember the name), 50 mg P5P, 100mg of benfotiamine (not too worried about the big dose of this because it has other properties I want to incorporate into my regimen), and 250mg pantethine every other day. I also drink quite a bit of (organic, grass-fed, non-homogenized) milk, which is why I think I may be getting enough niacin without supps.

Getting some panthenine powder is a great idea! I didn't think about that. What's your source? I've been thinking of getting some pharmacist's scales so you may have tipped me over into that purchase. I used to have a nice little set but got rid of them. I wish I hadn't.