The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

[froufox]

I will have to read up on Th17 and also kynurenine pathway. I get bad depression when I don't feel good; I'll have to try to figure out if when that happens if it's die-off or not. I went for many years never having any ups. Depression can be worse than physical pain. Wow, so GcMAF elevated your IL-6, do you know why?

I went to that link by Ben Lynch, it's from 2011! That's terrible that that information is a little blogpost from 2011 and no one ever made it well known that methylfolate and B12 induce Parkinson symptoms! I'm not satisfied with his response; it's too lame.

Is there anything we can do that won't stir things up and make things worse?

Have you listened to the videos about mast cell activation being related to chronic fatigue?

yes i think because it works by boosting macrophages, and macrophages secrete IL-6, and increased Il-6 is associated with depression.

Yes ive seen the stuff about mast cells/histamine...i've not found anti-histamines to be majorly helpful though i did find Lutimax helpful at times after bad reactions to the GcMAF. That contains Luteolin (which is quite a strong anti-inflammatory, inhibits activated microglia and IL-6) and I personally found that more helpful than "Neuroprotek" the other well-known mast cell supplement which also has luteolin and quercetin too, but perhaps the Lutimax worked better for me because it is a sublingual lozenge and more easily absorbed I don't know. I know that others find Neuroprotek helpful.

 

[xjhuez]

I've begun to wonder whether potato starch is actually helping me, or whether it's been placebo.

Others have reported strong reactions, positive and negative, to small amounts. I started at 1 tsp to zero effect, and it wasn't until I hit 3 tbsp that I felt "something". I seemed to feel better - maybe a little more energy, a little less PEM. However, it has not improved my sleep, not caused me any gas (associated with the fermentation we're after) and honestly not done anything that I can definitively associate with potato starch intake.

I wonder if, as Dr. Grace/BG says, I'm feeding empty zoo cages. Dr. Ayers agrees that RS is "inert fiber" if you don't have the right microbiota, specifically Clostridium. I may need to supplement the right bugs.

Also, I'm trying the larch arabinogalactan today. Interested to see how, if at all, this stuff effects me. According to Dr Ayers "...resistant starch can be digested by a couple of enzymes into glucose that can be used by most gut flora. Arabinogalactan, on the other hand, requires a dozen enzymes for plant synthesis and an equal number of hydrolytic enzymes to produce arabinose and galactose, which require further enzymes for metabolism in a select few of species of gut flora bacteria."

Isn't self-experimentation fun?

 

[Sidereal]

Others have reported strong reactions, positive and negative, to small amounts. I started at 1 tsp to zero effect, and it wasn't until I hit 3 tbsp that I felt "something". I seemed to feel better - maybe a little more energy, a little less PEM. However, it has not improved my sleep, not caused me any gas (associated with the fermentation we're after) and honestly not done anything that I can definitively associate with potato starch intake.

I haven't experienced any gas from RS either which seems quite contrary to many reports of severe flatulence on the FTA blog. I am using a very small dose, though (recently worked up to 1 tsp every few days). Here's what a review paper (free full text available) about prebiotics I came across said about gas. (I don't know if this is true or not, just thought I'd share.)

One possible side effect of prebiotic intake is intestinal discomfort from gas production. However, bifidobacteria and lactobacilli cannot produce gas as part of their metabolic process. Therefore, at a rational dose of up to 20 g/d, gas distension should not occur. If gas is being generated, then the carbohydrate is not acting as an authentic prebiotic. This is perhaps because dosage is too high and the prebiotic effect is being compromised, i.e., bacteria other than the target organisms are becoming involved in the fermentation. A further explanation is that at high doses, the prebiotic causes osmotic diarrhea, and the more rapid transit of digesta through the small bowel thus reduces digestion/absorption of other dietary components. These other dietary components (e.g., unabsorbed nutrients, including other carbohydrates and proteins) are then available for fermentation by the bacteria in the distal bowel. This may explain the production of gas and distension, which would/should not occur if only the prebiotic were entering the distal bowel.

 

[xjhuez]

I agree that lack of gas alone wouldn't mean much. And I'm not making a judgement on flatulence as a good/bad thing, only that the lack of gas is on the list of things possibly indicative that the RS is passing through me inertly.

 

[maddietod]

I've been taking 4 tablespoons of potato starch for 4 weeks. About 2 weeks in I got a thick-mucus cold that went right to my lungs and sinuses. I ended up with a sinus infection requiring antibiotics.

I finished the antibiotics yesterday, and am still constantly clearing my throat and feeling like I can't quite get rid of something in my throat. I don't feel sick.

I get arthritis from nightshades, and have not had that reaction to the potato starch at all. But now I'm wondering if the congestion issue is an allergic reaction.

I had dehydrated some plantains right before I got sick. I just ground them up and will use them instead of the potato starch. We'll see what happens.

I went through all of my notes, but can't find an answer to this question: Is the RS in plantain flour the same as the RS in green banana flour? I'm finding amounts of 5-6 grams per tablespoon. I'm hoping it's higher than that for plantains.

 

[Gestalt]

I went through all of my notes, but can't find an answer to this question: Is the RS in plantain flour the same as the RS in green banana flour? I'm finding amounts of 5-6 grams per tablespoon. I'm hoping it's higher than that for plantains.

PS is about 75% RS by weight, Plantain Flour is about 50% by weight. So yes it's lower...significantly.
References: http://freetheanimal.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Resistant-Starch-in-Foods.pdf

 

[maddietod]

PS is about 75% RS by weight, Plantain Flour is about 50% by weight. So yes it's lower...significantly.
References: http://freetheanimal.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/Resistant-Starch-in-Foods.pdf

I've not written much about two other very respectable sources of RS, both in whole foods: green plantains and green bananas. They're about 50% RS by weight in their unripened state, [http://freetheanimal.com/2014/02/bananas-resistant-starch.html]

This is where I get confused. A medium peeled banana weighs about 125g. If it's green, that should give me 67g RS. If I dehydrate it, let's pretend I get 30g of flour. According to the chart you linked, I would now only have 15g RS.

If I somehow lose 3/4 of the RS by turning my bananas into flour, I won't bother.

 

[Gestalt]

This is where I get confused. A medium peeled banana weighs about 125g. If it's green, that should give me 67g RS. If I dehydrate it, let's pretend I get 30g of flour. According to the chart you linked, I would now only have 15g RS.

If I somehow lose 3/4 of the RS by turning my bananas into flour, I won't bother.

You have to account for the loss in water weight. The % apply to the food AFTER water has been removed.

 

[maddietod]

You have to account for the loss in water weight. The % apply to the food AFTER water has been removed.

If you look at my quote from a February freetheanimal blog, you see he's talking about whole bananas and plantains.

I put the question on the blog.

 

[Gestalt]

If you look at my quote from a February feedtheanimal blog, you see he's talking about whole bananas and plantains.

Maybe he got it confused.

 

[Violeta]

Yes, it has become a bit cumbersome. I will accept responsibility for many if not most of the long, and often, off-topic thoughts. I will go back and delete some of these ramblings when I get a chance.

Maybe the messages about cortisol, etc., could be moved to a new thread. I think they are interesting and helpful.

 

[Vegas]

I am often changing around doses as I never seem to quite hit the optimal balance/ratio between them. Right now I take 1 Thorne Basic B complex, along with 1mg mB12, 25mg P5P, 300mg pantethine and some extra biotin. Sometimes I throw in some niacinamide before bed, although it doesn't always help.

In a related resistant starch development, it looks like I have run a deficit of vitamin B12 as my metabolism has pushed forward. My legs became suddenly shaky on Sunday, this week, something I have not had in a very long time. I developed worsening paresthesia in both my hands throughout the week, then I started getting some unusual muscle pain, tension sort of jerky pre-spasmodic, uncomfortable stuff. One of those odd symptoms that we deal with at one point or another. Thiamine made me feel awful. I don't regularly take B12, but a little under the tongue lessened symptoms in about 10 minutes. I think MMA may have finally been elevated, which I see as a good sign, provided I keep a little B12 in the cells. Several weeks earlier, it was NAD to seemingly counterbalance NADH rising too quickly.

I think a b complex, perhaps a little panetehine, plus extra b2, MTHF, and hydroxocobalamin may be the best general recommendation I could give, yet, as you know, there is no one-size fits all when it comes to B vitamins.

 

[adreno]

In a related resistant starch development, it looks like I have run a deficit of vitamin B12 as my metabolism has pushed forward. My legs became suddenly shaky on Sunday, this week, something I have not had in a very long time. I developed worsening paresthesia in both my hands throughout the week, then I started getting some unusual muscle pain, tension sort of jerky pre-spasmodic, uncomfortable stuff. One of those odd symptoms that we deal with at one point or another. Thiamine made me feel awful. I don't regularly take B12, but a little under the tongue lessened symptoms in about 10 minutes. I think MMA may have finally been elevated, which I see as a good sign, provided I keep a little B12 in the cells. Several weeks earlier, it was NAD to seemingly counterbalance NADH rising too quickly.

I think a b complex, perhaps a little panetehine, plus extra b2, MTHF, and hydroxocobalamin may be the best general recommendation I could give, yet, as you know, there is no one-size fits all when it comes to B vitamins.

Actually, yesterday I found out I also have a B12 deficiency. The day before I experienced a sort of crash with shakiness, tremors and a general awful feeling. B12 helped (about 5 mg). Yesterday morning it happened again, so yesterday I ended up taking 3 x 5 mg methylcobalamin. I also took an extra dose of my B complex.

My metabolism is still running at full speed, even I haven't taken RS for a month. I've also lost about 5 kg.

I also feel like I am on speed most of the time. I think I have overloaded on zinc. I had a severe deficiency a few years ago and have taken 60mg for about a year, then reduced to 30mg some time ago. But since starting on the RS, I don't tolerate it any more. I get headache, nausea, liver pain, muscle cramps and a speedy feeling if I take zinc now. Perhaps I started actually absorbing minerals from food?

Zinc seems to be a NMDA blocker while stimulating other glutamate receptors. Perhaps I need more B6 to turn all that glutamate into GABA.

 

[Sidereal]

It is interesting that you guys mention RS induced B12 deficiency. Last week I started getting some paresthesia in my hands and I was stumbling around, mild ataxia etc., the usual symptoms I get when my B12 gets low and I need to supplement some.

@adreno , the revved up feeling you describe, are you supplementing with thyroid or steroid hormones perhaps? I too have a very strong reaction to zinc now that I am taking RS. Last weekend I decided to add some GOS to my tiny RS dose. I took 5.5 g of GOS (one sachet of Bimuno) for a couple of days in a row. I also took 15 mg of zinc last Sunday just to see what would happen. What ensued really shocked me due to its severity. Nausea, headache, heaviness in limbs, sore throat, lymphatic pain around knees and feet, even mild temperature in early afternoons. I felt like full-on flu had come on but of course it was bacterial die-off. I feel better today (7 days later). Then I remembered that zinc was discussed on this thread a while ago so I did a search and this popped up:

Interesting, so I think the diet you pursued may have lowered the endotoxin content in the gut and thus when you introduced the starch you didn't get the same inflammatory reaction when the RS was added. This is similar to when you take an oral dose of zinc. Zinc is what makes alkaline phosphatase work, and the relatively recently discovered intestinal phosphatase which is also a zinc-dependent enzyme helps neutralize LPS in the GIT. Unfortunately, LPS + oral zinc will create a pro-inflammatory reaction response, hence the nausea and yucky feeling it conveys. Theoretically, zinc oxide wouldn't create the same effect, but it is certainly not the ideal form of zinc. Nearly every "inflammatory" disease I have studied can be described as a zinc-deficient condition.

 

[adreno]

@Sidereal, no thyroid meds. I was taking 1mg of iodine which I stopped 6 weeks ago. Still anything that stimulate the thyroid (vitamin a, selenium, monolaurin etc) is intolerable.
It definitely feels like zinc toxicity to me, not die off.

 

[finalgates]

is it good idea to take sodium bicarbonate with probiotics to survive stomach acid better?

 

[maddietod]

My experiment with dehydrating green plantains and green bananas:

4.5lb plantains yields 2.7lb peeled, yields 1lb flour (22% yield), measuring about 3 1/2 cups

6.6lb bananas yields 3.9lb peeled, yields 1 lb flour (15% yield) measuring about 2 1/3 cups

The plantains cost me $3 for 6; the bananas cost me $3 for 6 pounds.

The plantain flour cost me $3.20/lb. The banana flour cost me $3.10/lb.

The plantain tastes like starch. The banana tastes intensely of banana.

 

[PDXhausted]

Has anyone tried taking PS while on antibiotics? Or would that be a bad idea?

My gut got really screwed up on amoxicillin despite seeing other positive effects in my health. I've been off for a while now but am trying out doxycycline, since my health has declined considerably since stopping the amoxicillin. But I would still like to work on my gut if I can. Regular lactic-acid producing probiotics leave me completely hypoxic-- my D-lactate is high. I partly wonder if I was feeling better on amoxicillin just by killing off my good guys :/

 

[Sushi]

Has anyone tried taking PS while on antibiotics? Or would that be a bad idea?

My gut got really screwed up on amoxicillin despite seeing other positive effects in my health. I've been off for a while now but am trying out doxycycline, since my health has declined considerably since stopping the amoxicillin. But I would still like to work on my gut if I can. Regular lactic-acid producing probiotics leave me completely hypoxic-- my D-lactate is high. I partly wonder if I was feeling better on amoxicillin just by killing off my good guys :/

I am taking it while on abx. Been taking a new abx for two weeks and I have blown up yet.

Sushi

 

[MeSci]

I will have to read up on Th17 and also kynurenine pathway. I get bad depression when I don't feel good; I'll have to try to figure out if when that happens if it's die-off or not. I went for many years never having any ups. Depression can be worse than physical pain. Wow, so GcMAF elevated your IL-6, do you know why?

I went to that link by Ben Lynch, it's from 2011! That's terrible that that information is a little blogpost from 2011 and no one ever made it well known that methylfolate and B12 induce Parkinson symptoms! I'm not satisfied with his response; it's too lame.

Is there anything we can do that won't stir things up and make things worse?

Have you listened to the videos about mast cell activation being related to chronic fatigue?

I have just developed an interest in kynurenine/tryptophan after reading an item on interferon and depression in Journal Watch, and have posted a thread on it here.

I have decided to try 5-HTP for my current low mood.