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B12 and Insomnia

ahmo

Senior Member
Messages
4,805
Location
Northcoast NSW, Australia
@NilaJones, I've been getting great results using rutin and royal jelly for histamine. Also quercetin, tho I seem to use less of it than the other 2. I really endorse self-testing. I learned my technique just as I was collapsing, so I've had a long time to work with it. It's my best ally.

@caledonia, thanks for this fav video. I often recommend self-testing, now I can link this.:)
 

caledonia

Senior Member
Alright, now I am replying to @caledonia's first post :).
I trialed GF oats last night and it flared up my inflammation, so very limited typing. One thing about histamine diet is food reactions seem to settle much more quickly -- days not weeks. So I do think there is a histamine factor of some sort. Does not affect sleep, though.

It could still be affecting sleep even if you don't think so.

[Neurotransmitter test]
Ok. What is a good one?

Here is a whole page of them: http://www.integrativepsychiatry.net/neuro_tests_by_symptom.html
It looks like the Neurosleep test might be a good choice. My naturopath had me do this one, but I also had problems with anxiety as well as sleep: http://www.integrativepsychiatry.net/neuroadrenal_profile.html

Aside from sleepiness, what effects should I look for when trialing benadryl?
I think that's basically it - it should induce and/or maintain sleepiness.

That is so nice of you! Perque hydroxy and Sisu methyl were both worse than clams. Do you think Yasko hydroxy would be different?

I think with trials of two other B12s having the same effect, that the Yasko B12 would just be more of the same.

I do know how to do it, but I do not really believe in it. Maybe I should give it a go... I do just try to pay careful attention to what my body wants. But of course I do not always know, especially with things I have never had.

I don't think you have to "believe" in it to have it work, unless it would keep you from being able to neutralize your mind so as not to influence the results. It's not a religion or mystical; there's at least a partial scientific basis for it, if you know anything about physics.
 

whodathunkit

Senior Member
Messages
1,160
caledonia said:
I think that's basically it - [benadryl] should induce and/or maintain sleepiness.
So if you have problems with high histamine Benadryl will make you sleepy, but if you don't, it won't? Is that it?

I've been following the histamine angle of this thread with interest. Suspect I might have somewhat of a problem although no overt reactions. Never had hives, rashes, etc.

However, I had an iron transfusion a few months ago, before which they gave me IV Benadryl to stave off any reaction from the transfusion. I was rather gobsmacked by how the Benadryl just wiped me out. I went immediately into a trance-like sleep, basically slept the whole five hours of the transfusion (although I did keep waking up due to activity around me and the semi-weird quality of the sleep), and then had a hangover of sorts for a couple of days, during which I was a little muggy, foggy, not quite up to speed.

Would this reaction to Benadryl indicate a histamine problem? @caledonia, would you care to speculate?
 

Star-Anise

Senior Member
Messages
218

Hi there. @NilaJones Yep this is what I meant:


you mean raise it for one day, then go back down to the old dose for 8 days, then do the new dose again for one day?

When you are able to stablize following the one day raised amount, then do it again. Work to only needing 6 days in between, then 5... and so on. This is how I had to start with methylfolate and methylB12...

S:)
 

maryb

iherb code TAK122
Messages
3,602
Location
UK
@NilaJones, I've been getting great results using rutin and royal jelly for histamine. Also quercetin, tho I seem to use less of it than the other 2. I really endorse self-testing. I learned my technique just as I was collapsing, so I've had a long time to work with it. It's my best ally.

@caledonia, thanks for this fav video. I often recommend self-testing, now I can link this.:)
How much rutin and RJ do you use?
My genetic results contra-indicate quercetin so I'm glad I didn't try it
I have an immediate reaction to Benadryl - straight off to sleep - I could get quite addicted - I have to limit it to 3 or 4 times a week at most. I alternate it with Nytol (UK)
 

ahmo

Senior Member
Messages
4,805
Location
Northcoast NSW, Australia
@maryb, I'm generally using 1 NOW rutin, 450mg, and 1 Paradise rj, 500mg w/ my AM meal. As I've been doing my coffee enema intensive, I find I need these following the enemas, so was using 2/day, tho I didn't test + for additional quercetin. Now, as I've progressed thru this detox, I'm only needing (self-testing + for) them once, following the enemas, indicating less histamine arising from the process. I'm also feeling a lot less funky afterwards. whew!:woot:
 

maryb

iherb code TAK122
Messages
3,602
Location
UK
@ahmo
thanks for the info.
I gave up the coffee enemas temporarily - I got horrendous migraines - think I made them too strong - will go back to a teaspoon, (I had gone up to 3 tsp in a pint)
 

ahmo

Senior Member
Messages
4,805
Location
Northcoast NSW, Australia
@maryb, I use 3-4 Tb/liter, so that's considerably stronger. When I began them, I used the dark roast I had on hand. 3T gave me sleep problems at night. I decreased to 2 Tb, which was better, but I was still pretty buzzy. So I went to a light roast, which was better. Then I decided to go w/ the speciality coffee from s.a.Wilson, super light roast, and special blend. This has been way better.

Once I could rule out the caffeine buzz, I discovered that histamines and sulfur/ammonia created in the process was making me feel toxic. So not only did I begin the anti-histamine supps straight after, but I now also do a clear water flush after the 2x coffee enemas. I 'd been reading comments from a GAPS forum member who does them all the time, and started this double coffee routine. And I've been putting a bunch of things into the final, 'clear' water, which might help prevent migraines: GABA, glycine (I've been using this for years, just read that it's a detox agent),
lysine and ornithine for sulfur/ammonia, mg, K+, arginine, biotin, Vit C and Ca for the histamines, as well as zinc, mang, Se. I'm also adding oregano oil, which has been no problem, not too strong. Big adventure, the only place in my life I've been willing to take risks!:rolleyes:
 

maryb

iherb code TAK122
Messages
3,602
Location
UK
@ahmo
I started on the dr Wilson's stuff so its the best isn't it? I've had a couple of bad months so think I'm probably so toxic its going to be a long slow process, will try another coffee enema tomorrow - its okay to be ill on sunday!!!
I have to balance everything so I can function at even a low level some days, the migraines totally incapacitate me.
You take a good balance of stuff - I don't do as well...........
 

Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
2,895
Vitamin B2, B3, and B6 deficiencies can cause headaches and insomnia.



There's a thread about B2 that was a big eye opener.
 
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NilaJones

Senior Member
Messages
647
Hello folks! Somehow I stopped recieving notifications for this thread, so I had no idea y'all were still replying. o_O.

@Star-Anise : Thanks for the clarification :). In a spate of brain fog, I forgot my dose entirely for 3 or 4 days this week, so I have to work up to it a bit again. But I will try your method, after.

I found a note to myself. It says 'COMT is the reason for my 'speedy' reaction to B12!'.

Complete with exclamation mark, so it must have felt like quite a revelation. But I guess I was having a bad day when I wrote it, because I didn't write anything more (like why I thought that) and I have no memory of it.

Do any of you know what this means? And what I can do about it? I have found some threads on addressing COMT, but it is slow going for my wee brain.

@ahmo: What is the purpose of the coffee enemas?

@Violetta: Thank you!
 

ahmo

Senior Member
Messages
4,805
Location
Northcoast NSW, Australia
@NilaJones Here's what Heartfixer (consolidated Yasko) writes about COMT. (my added highlight color)
http://www.heartfixer.com/AMRI-Nutrigenomics.htm
COMT degrades dopamine, norepinephrine, and to a somewhat lesser extent other neurotransmitter substances, by tacking on to them a free methyl group that COMT obtains from SAMe. The V158M and H62H alleles of COMT are down mutations. Individuals (+/+) or (+/-) for these genes will degrade dopamine only slowly. Now, while COMT (+) status is not the norm, from our perspective it is not necessarily a bad thing. We need dopamine to defend against microbes and heavy metals; here being (+) for COMT is actually in our favor. BH4 deficiency is the consequence of CBS, BHMT, and the “backward” MTHFR A1298C defects. We need BH4 to carry out multiple physiologic steps, including the generation of dopamine. If our COMT (+) status keeps us from breaking down dopamine, we do not need to “spend” BH4 to make dopamine, leaving more BH4 available for other critical functions. The downside of being COMT (+) is that you will have a lot of free methyl groups floating around, as you are not using them up breaking down dopamine. Thus if we need to give you other Methyl Cycle intermediates (such as methyl-B12 if you have MTR/MTRR issues), we risk ODing you with methyl groups. Too many methyl groups can lead to mood swings. Panic attacks and bi-polar mood disorder are seen with greater frequency in COMT (+) individuals; this makes sense. COMT (-) individuals, on the other hand, need and tolerate methyl groups. A third, and less frequently encountered COMT abnormality, COMT 61, is a down regulation defect. Individuals (+) for COMT 61 breakdown dopamine quite rapidly and are at greatest need for methyl donors. To summarize in chart form:

COMT H62H (+/+)
COMT L136L (+/+)
COMT 61 (-/-)

Highest dopamine levels
Lowest need for and tolerance to methyl group donors
Greatest susceptibility to mood swings

COMT H62H (-/-)
COMT L136L (-/-)
COMT 61 (+/+)

Lowest dopamine levels
Greatest need for and tolerance to methyl group donors
Lower susceptibility to mood swings*

So, yes, you're very susceptible to B12 and folate. Go low and slow.

I'm doing coffee enemas because I continued to have bloating after 2 years on GAPS. I decided to increase my detoxxing. This has been reinforced for me in Dietrich Klinghardt's vid presentation, emphasis on detox, detox, detox. I've recently added a few essential oils that have ramped up my detox. But you need to be gentle and slow for now. Hope this finds you feeling better.:hug: ahmo

Natasha Campbell-McBride, GAPS, says
Coffee enemas have been used as a healing remedy for the last 100 years; they are particularly well known as part of the treatment of cancer with Gerson Protocol. Coffee enemas are considered to be one of the best ways of cleansing the liver and speeding up detoxification processes in the body. Many people report that coffee enema gives a good pain relief as well. The mechanism of its function is not clear, but it is thought that various substances in the coffee absorb through the rich capillary bed of the rectum into the portal veins, which lead directly to the liver.

In the Gerson Protocol people perform four coffee enemas every day. A GAPS person does not have to do that; I recommend doing a coffee enema whenever there is a need, which can be once a day, once in a few days or once in a while. Here is what my patients report after using coffee enemas: migraine headaches disappear; feel better, more clear-headed and more energetic; nausea goes away or greatly reduced; pain relief (anywhere in the body); better mood; acne clears up; other skin problems clear up; less reflux; better sleep; feel �less toxic�. Once a person has experienced the coffee enema, they usually know when they need another one.

In order for the coffee enema to have a full effect one has to hold the coffee in the bowel for about 15 minutes. In the Gerson Protocol people do four coffee enemas per day, so their bowels are kept fairly empty all the time. For a person who does enemas occasionally, holding coffee in for 15 minutes can be very difficult or impossible because the bowel is full. That is why I recommend clearing the bowel out first with water enemas before getting the coffee in. Another reason is that in a GAPS person with faecal compaction or putrefaction in the bowel, trying to hold coffee in would stir up the toxins and allow them to absorb, which can give very unpleasant symptoms.

Klinghardt: Autism, Lyme, Pyroluria
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=-z3kRDYcvhA

Short Version (36pg) Pyroluria/Lyme protocol. From Powerpoint doc used during Klinghardt presentation: Lyme Induced Autism
http://www.lymeinducedautism.com/images/1_KlinghardtKPU_09_PX.pdf
 

NilaJones

Senior Member
Messages
647
@NilaJones Here's what Heartfixer (consolidated Yasko) writes about COMT. (my added highlight color)
http://www.heartfixer.com/AMRI-Nutrigenomics.htm


So, yes, you're very susceptible to B12 and folate. Go low and slow.

Oh, right. Thank you :).

I expect people like @Sushi find me annoying, because I ask the same questions over and over. But my memory is screwed up, and I have no memory of asking or even wondering before -- until I read the answer and think, 'Oh, right'. If I could remember that I had asked then I could just look in my old posts :(. It's really embarrassing.

So, is there nothing I can do other than go low and slow?

How would low and slow even help? It seems like it's really just low and LOW. My body is never going to get better at breaking down dopamine and norepinephrine, is it, unless I can do something to support those processes? Lithium? It's side effects look pretty scary :(.

...I'm doing coffee enemas because I continued to have bloating after 2 years on GAPS. I decided to increase my detoxxing....

Oh, thank you!
 
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ahmo

Senior Member
Messages
4,805
Location
Northcoast NSW, Australia
Hi Nila. I doubt that Sushi or anyone is exasperated with you. We all (?) have memory issues. I never know if I've just posted the same answer to the same person yesterday, or if it's, indeed, someone new.:lol:

My head's not clear enough to answer whether there's anything you can do beyond go low and low. as Star-Anise said,
When you are able to stablize following the one day raised amount, then do it again. Work to only needing 6 days in between, then 5... and so on. This is how I had to start with methylfolate and methylB12..

Have things changed for you during the past week or so? Are you still taking the clams? Any luck understanding if histamines or glutamate or sulfur are problems? I'll check back tomorrow. :hug:
 

Star-Anise

Senior Member
Messages
218
So, is there nothing I can do other than go low and slow?

How would low and slow even help? It seems like it's really just low and LOW. My body is never going to get better at breaking down dopamine and norepinephrine, is it, unless I can do something to support those processes? Lithium? It's side effects look pretty scary :(.

Hi @NilaJones
are you still getting insomnia when you try to increase your B12?

I found that increased liver function really helped me balance everything as well.

As well, it is possible that you don't need that much B12 at this time. Don't feel pressure to push beyond what your body can use right now. It may take some time.

I have to agree with @ahmo the detox seemed to be a big part of my picture, and still is. But I'm not sure if that's where you are at to be honest. I'm a firm believer that the body has to have some reserve & strength to detox. If you are still very weak & are mostly bed bound then I'm not sure this is the time for detox. But that is just my opinion.

The first person that really helped me was Dr. Neville from the Clymer Healing Institute. He is very adrenal focused. And he said first & foremost we need to make sure you are sleeping. Your body cannot heal if you are not sleeping. And he was right. He was the one that introduced me to the Seriphos product to help lower the cortisol at night so I can sleep. People are very reluctant to use it because we tend to have low daytime cortisol. I went off of it awhile ago, but I'm considering trying a small dose again, as I'm getting a second wind around 9pm, & not feeling as rested in the am. He explained that it is a normal/common part of adrenals healing to have higher cortisol at night. I'm also thinking about getting another cortisol test through him, to check in. It's been about 5 years since I had my last one.

All the best to you, hang in there :) S
 

NilaJones

Senior Member
Messages
647
Aw, thanks, youse guys :).

@ahmo :
Have things changed for you during the past week or so? Are you still taking the clams? Any luck understanding if histamines or glutamate or sulfur are problems?

Nothing's changed except that I forgot to take the clams for several days, which made my inflammation somewhat worse.

Histamines are definitely an issue. I am working through testing foods, which will take about another year to complete. The wrong foods make my inflammation much worse, and some of them make me tired or sick. Bad foods so far are gluten, gluten-free rice and oats, cinnamon, and clams left overnight in the fridge.

Sulfur is not an issue, according to urine strips and symptoms.

MSG is an issue and I have avoided it for 30 years.

Thank you so much for your supportive comments about memory :).

@Star-Anise :

I don't really feel strong enough for detox, is true. What have you found useful for liver function?

Re: adrenals, on my tired days I do sometimes get that second wind in the evening, but it does not interfere with sleep. Mostly I don't get that, though. A new thing since I have started getting better is that I am not usually completely exhausted by evening! Just a little tired. And I sleep well if I do not have too much B12 or stress or mineral imbalance. Most nights are good. It's just trying to up the doses that is a problem.

--

I have a question for y'all. I am wondering if I should try eating more red meat. I eat about 1/4lb or 100g daily right now. I do have slightly high cholesterol.

The reason I eat it is that I get chelitis if I don't. But meat does not give me any decrease in inflammation, or increase in energy or mental clarity -- what I think of as signs of B12 absorption. I think the chelitis thing might be from creatine.

I am not sure how I would tell if it was worth the heart risk.

Or eggs: I crave them, especially the soft cooked yolks, when I forget to take clams. But symptomatically they are the same as beef. Confusing!
 

Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
2,895
Some people think that high cholesterol is more a sign of liver issues than eating foods that contain cholesterol.
 

Star-Anise

Senior Member
Messages
218
@NilaJones

I don't really feel strong enough for detox, is true. What have you found useful for liver function?

My new friend is limonene. I find it helps with phase 1/2 detox, and is not a sulphur agent, which I'm sensitive too. I find that most liver detoxes are heavy on the sulphur agents, & often contain various different amino acids that are involved in detox. A way to mimic some of the effects of limonene in a more gentler way is to drink fresh lemon water, & increase fresh lemon in diet. As well, I have used citrus bioflavonoids for this purpose as well.

The other approach that liver detoxes often take is to increase bile production through different agents. My favorite gentle way to do this is through using ginger, & I make a hot ginger tea by steeping fresh ginger.

I have also experimented with Calcium Glucarate to help liver function in past, but there are concerns about negative impact on thyroid, & my body just seemed to love it at one point, and then was done with it.

I am wondering if I should try eating more red meat. I eat about 1/4lb or 100g daily right now. I do have slightly high cholesterol.

I would. More meat in general was a big part of my recovery. You may not notice results right away, but I think that most of us could benefit from the increased protein & amino acids, and I'm a big Weston Price fan. I think that meat is more accessible protein for us. If digestion is an issue you may want to supplement with HCl. I had to do that for awhile too. I tend to agree with Violeta about the cholesterol issue.

Or eggs: I crave them, especially the soft cooked yolks, when I forget to take clams. But symptomatically they are the same as beef. Confusing!

Yes, I think generally you are likely low in B12, and probably benefit from the protein, sulphur, & amino acids. I would eat more eggs if I were you. I often would eat 5 hard boiled eggs a day earlier on in my recovery.

Re: the cholesterol issue. I would get a baseline cholesterol & check it regularly. It would be important to monitor it. But I think there has been huge debunking around the saturated fats = high cholesterol theory. I'd check out the westonprice.org site for more info. I found this link that seems to address most of the controversy: http://www.westonaprice.org/cardiovascular-disease/myths-a-truths-about-cholesterol
 
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ahmo

Senior Member
Messages
4,805
Location
Northcoast NSW, Australia
@NilaJones Two thumbs up for Weston A Price, meat, eggs, not worrying about cholesterol:thumbsup::thumbsup:

I went from grain-based + a bit of fish diet to GAPS. It was a terrifying leap, but there was no choice. My body loved and continues to love it. Most recent 'research' suggests we've been misled for decades re saturated fat, red meat, and cholesterol. Natasha Campbell-McBride (GAPS, neurologist) says our body needs cholesterol for healing. When it's elevated, it's due to need, not pathology. My main food is meat broth w/ added rendered fat (tallow). I'm about to prep fat today. I eat about a palm-sized amt. of meat per meal. When I'm doing coffee enemas, I eat meat once/day, on days off, twice/day.

I just came across the following in a thread, re raising B12/folate. (my highlighting added) It reminds me that I was working on other supports for my system for some months before beginning to increase these.
http://forums.phoenixrising.me/inde...gaba-to-reverse-its-effect.29083/#post-445250

Speaking of Ben Lynch, just recently I got around to watching his YouTube videos. I wish that I would have done so sooner. I would not go so far as to say that they conflict with the material that he has provided in written form, but there is a definite shift in emphasis with regard to crucial issues. No question, on his website he discusses the side effects of too much 5-MTHF. But in the videos he goes much further: he states repeatedly that giving 5-MTHF + m-B12 to very sick people is a terrible idea as it will almost always make them worse. Instead, he says, the chronically ill should focus on repairing cell membranes, supporting mitochondria, and reducing oxidative stress. Methylation support should come much later. This is a somewhat different sense than one takes away from his written work -- and interestingly, it brings him in line with Amy Yasko's recommendations.

I've had great results using herb Chanca Piedra for liver/gb support. Also adrenal glandular. I used a number of other things for adrenals before this, but glandular adrenal seems to be the most efficient, just supplying extra adrenal, w/o needing any sort of complex processing. cheers:balloons:

http://www.iherb.com/Advanced-Orthomolecular-Research-AOR-Classic-Series-Chanca-Piedra-90-Veggie-Caps/52557#p=1&oos=1&disc=0&lc=en-US&w=AOR chanca piedra&rc=9&sr=null&ic=1
 
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