Life Expectancy vs Healthcare Spending. We're all Alone.

[Misfit Toy]

@ggingues , revolution calling, revolution calling...revolution calling you! Operation Mindcrime, one of the classic heavier albums of all time. Notice how I say ALBUM. Dating myself.

I don't love socialized medicine. But, I don't love Obamacare either. I voted for him and now I want him out of office.

I thought we were going to have "socialized" medicine according to many with the new reform. Not so. I worked for NHS news based out of Manchester, England and I was the American correspondent. I learned a lot about both sides of the fence.

Admittedly, I am not huge into politics. I know a little of this and a little of that, but every doc I go tells me that with Medicare, I am seriously screwed. And, that BCBS sucks. They are turning down folks for IVIG left and right and for basic medical care. Medicare has always been good to me, but now I will have to fight constantly to have basic testing and procedures covered. Imagine being in a country where you didn't have to pay $700 for a medicine? Sign me up.

A doc has no reason to lie and everyone of my docs is upset about how the ill and the old will become worse off.

(((GG)))

Sad.

 

[JPV]

You're looking at it the wrong way. It's not that we spend more on health care... it's that we get ripped off more by the organized crime syndicate that's running the US medical industry.

 

[Ambrosia_angel]

Really? I'm glad I am in the US, and not the UK, go figure?! I'm sure there are people who would like to switch positions, but I feel there is more hope in the USA, and the bigger gains will probably come out of this country, due to our diversity of everything. Not sure what good monoliths are good at producing? Besides the same ole, same ole.

Peace out, and good luck!

GG

Well I think every country is good at particular things and worse at others. I'm not saying the uk is the best healthcare wise because it isn't. No country can be the best in that area because there will always be room for improvement. There are countries that can be worse in health and for a 1st world, rich, country America has a really bad reputation for certain people not being able to get the healthcare they deserve. That's what we know in the uk anyway. I'm not sure about other countries.

 

[Snow Leopard]

Corporate monopolies has a lot to do with it.

Since most medical expenditures are irregular, there is no consumer market, you either pay or suffer - so there is no chance of a competitive consumer-driven market.

In other countries the cost is limited by government involvement who prevent absurd prices being charged. Not so in the USA.

 

[*GG*]

Corporate monopolies has a lot to do with it.

Since most medical expenditures are irregular, there is no consumer market, you either pay or suffer - so there is no chance of a competitive consumer-driven market.

Had me up to where I cut off your comment. The market would limit absurd prices being charged, if the job could be done for less, you would do the job and still make money, basic economics. Supply and demand.

GG

 

[*GG*]

Well I think every country is good at particular things and worse at others. I'm not saying the uk is the best healthcare wise because it isn't. No country can be the best in that area because there will always be room for improvement. There are countries that can be worse in health and for a 1st world, rich, country America has a really bad reputation for certain people not being able to get the healthcare they deserve. That's what we know in the uk anyway. I'm not sure about other countries.

Well the USA was founded upon that we are all created equally, and should be seen that way in a court of law etc..but people ARE going to have different outcomes (poor and very rich eg) in life, good thing, a world where everyone is sick would not be helpful to us, right?

Not sure what I "deserve", some human dignity, I think people would be willing to help out the sick and sickest in society, but how is the US gov't helping out in that regard? That IOM contract has most patients pissed off, we don't need them muddying the waters by having non-experts define our illness! Spend that MILLION dollars on some good research, like 2 day exercise, immune system abnormalities etc..

GG

 

[Ema]

Well the USA was founded upon that we are all created equally, and should be seen that way in a court of law etc..but people ARE going to have different outcomes (poor and very rich eg) in life, good thing, a world where everyone is sick would not be helpful to us, right?

GG

True, except that we aren't treated equally in courts of law etc.

The poor don't have the same access to quality legal advice nor usually the time or money to fight expensive lawsuits.

So the wealthy win, not because we are equal, but because they can afford to fight harder and longer.

Different outcomes is one thing but the government is supposed to help level the playing field. Otherwise we're back to serfs and lords.

 

[Ema]

Had me up to where I cut off your comment. The market would limit absurd prices being charged, if the job could be done for less, you would do the job and still make money, basic economics. Supply and demand.

GG

Basic economics has nothing to do with the price of healthcare in this country.

In most cases, it's impossible to even *get* a price before you have a procedure but are forced to sign a document saying you will pay no matter what your insurance decides to do.

And good luck getting a straight answer out of your insurance company as to what they will or won't cover.

And then if your insurance declines to pay, you are generally stuck paying full retail price for the procedure rather than the heavily discounted rates the insurers pay. You can generally negotiate a discount, but nothing close to insurance reimbursement rates.

Can you imagine any other industry where the pricing is so muddled and hidden being successful?

 

[*GG*]

Basic economics has nothing to do with the price of healthcare in this country.

In most cases, it's impossible to even *get* a price before you have a procedure but are forced to sign a document saying you will pay no matter what your insurance decides to do.

And good luck getting a straight answer out of your insurance company as to what they will or won't cover.

And then if your insurance declines to pay, you are generally stuck paying full retail price for the procedure rather than the heavily discounted rates the insurers pay. You can generally negotiate a discount, but nothing close to insurance reimbursement rates.

Can you imagine any other industry where the pricing is so muddled and hidden being successful?

Basics economics does not have anything to do with healthcare anymore, because the gov't has been involved with it since at least Medicare, the 1960s, thats at least when the field started being distorted. I think some families, back then could get a Dr to come to their home, good luck with that now.

I know it is hard to get prices, only a few states have laws for that, and NH is one of them. I guess it's up to the people to demand this transparency from their govt and businesses!

Like I have said before, I don't worry about costs to much, you cannot get blood from a stone, and I wll take care of myself before putting myself on the streets to pay some bill. Let the bill collectors call, not like they can through you in prison for debtors anymore And there are programs where bills can be reduced or written off, so you don't have to pay full price, if not, revert back to what I said earlier in this paragraph.

Pricing that is so muddled and hidden is what you get with big gov't and business colluding. Big gov't will just get most of us poorer health care via socialized medicine, in my opinion. I will opt out, and pay out of pocket, as long as I can.

GG

 

[*GG*]

True, except that we aren't treated equally in courts of law etc.

The poor don't have the same access to quality legal advice nor usually the time or money to fight expensive lawsuits.

So the wealthy win, not because we are equal, but because they can afford to fight harder and longer.

Different outcomes is one thing but the government is supposed to help level the playing field. Otherwise we're back to serfs and lords.

I am well aware of money helps in courts, but the little guy can still win at least some times, and might even get legal help for free if someone believes in your cause or wants to help set precedent.

Life is not fair, I'm over it, I get it. No system is perfect, but at least ours can be changed and made better if enough people see injustices that are done to people. Not going to happen in a dictatorial/communist system. We are better off where people have individual rights, otherwise we can just be written off.

the gov't should help level the playing field if there is some real systemic/inherent injustice built in, otherwise NO!

GG

 

[leela]

Here's a disease we rarely talk about as being perhaps the etiology of most of the ills we face no matter what geopolitical boundary lines we find ourselves in:

85 individuals own 50% of the planet's wealth. 85 individual humans.

This is insane.

 

[Ema]

the gov't should help level the playing field if there is some real systemic/inherent injustice built in, otherwise NO!

GG

This is a level playing field?

http://economy.money.cnn.com/2013/03/08/wealth-video/

 

[Snow Leopard]

Had me up to where I cut off your comment. The market would limit absurd prices being charged, if the job could be done for less, you would do the job and still make money, basic economics. Supply and demand.

GG

I'm talking about a market where there is strong competition and an equity of information between providers and consumers, a market where even the long term ill can afford the treatments. That market simply does not exist within our current economic structures. No one rationally plans to be ill and few are able to bargain under the circumstances. There is no real choice.

I was once libertarian-leaning ideologically, until I realised that the idea that all of the base needs of life can be expressed and rationally comprehended through a price at a single point in time is pure fantasy.

 

[barbc56]

In the US you are guaranteed a lawyer but not medical care other than emergency services which are expensive and a poor substitute for genuine healthcare.

While Obama care is in its infancy and there are a lot of things that need to be worked on, I am hopeful.

Ninety per cent of bankruptcies are from medical bills. This statistic blew me away. Unfortunately, I was one of those people as I lived off my savings for a year, without medical coverage, ever hopeful that someday I would go back to work. I would never ever had fathomed that this would happen to me and it was indeed a humbling experience.

Free enterprise is great for some things but IMHO, not for health care, as I think it lends itself to a type of business mindset where profit/expediency sometimes reigns over human dignity.

I have often wondered if this has contributed to the abysmal statistics for the US.

I know three people who now have insurance because of Obama care. Anecdotal, but nice to know they now have insurance.

No system is perfect.

Okay, rant over!
Barb

 

[barbc56]

@Ema Somehow I missed this thread. The video is certainly eye opening and have shared it on facebook. While that might be like preaching to the choir, it's an important message.

@Snow Leopard I love your last paragraph. I would love to have a plaque engraved with your words!

Barb

 

[heapsreal]

Was just speaking about this and how i have heard stories in the US where people have had to sell their house to get treated for cancer. In australia thats unheard off, rich or poor your going to get treated for those things in australia, its just sounds scary??

I guess most of us she our own health care systems as not up to standard but this is probably because we are looking at it from a cfs/me point of view too and because its not properly recognised they dont give a crap.

Medication prices here are mostly subsidized by the govt so there generally cheap, off label is a different story. But what i dont understand is how come we can buy many of these medications online cheaper and from quality pharma companies like cipla. I sometimes wonder if the australian govt is getting ripped off, similar to the insurance companies in the US by paying a fortune for meds.

Its actually cheaper to get medications in third world countries and there no subsidise there at all. There was a famous dr here who use to do eye surgery in third world countries etc and the ad use to say something like, we can save a person sight by performing this surgery for only $10, it was something like that. Now i thought wtf if i had it here it would cost me thousands $$, how does it work???

 

[alex3619]

You're looking at it the wrong way. It's not that we spend more on health care... it's that we get ripped off more by the organized crime syndicate that's running the US medical industry.

One of the principles of capitalism, more a heuristic than a law, is that many small competing businesses keep costs down due to competition.

Hospitals are often mini-monopolies. They are geographic monopolies, duopolies, etc. Monopolies tend to increase cost to what the system will bear. They cannot be contained except by regulation or dissolution. You can't get rid of hospitals, so you have to regulate them. People have to get medical care when severely ill or injured. They can charge what they like. Insurances companies have gone along with it. The system is broken, there is decreased freedom of choice as well - you can choose price gouging, or price gouging, or price gouging.

 

[beaker]

You're looking at it the wrong way. It's not that we spend more on health care... it's that we get ripped off more by the organized crime syndicate that's running the US medical industry.

Do you mean Big Pharma, Large Insurance companies, large corporate for profit health care providers. Which of course includes major shareholders and rock star executives.

 

[beaker]

Basic economics has nothing to do with the price of healthcare in this country.

In most cases, it's impossible to even *get* a price before you have a procedure but are forced to sign a document saying you will pay no matter what your insurance decides to do.

And good luck getting a straight answer out of your insurance company as to what they will or won't cover.

And then if your insurance declines to pay, you are generally stuck paying full retail price for the procedure rather than the heavily discounted rates the insurers pay. You can generally negotiate a discount, but nothing close to insurance reimbursement rates.

Can you imagine any other industry where the pricing is so muddled and hidden being successful?

Airline tickets come close. Only of course, not in the same realm of importance. And certainly more choice .