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The Resistant Starch Challenge: Is It The Key We've Been Looking For?

adreno

PR activist
Messages
4,841
This stimulation of sympathetic activity would explain with taking RS at the wrong time could be counterproductive. The succession of sympathetic and parasympathetic activities is heavily dependent on circadian and ultra-circadian rhythms.
If RS stimulates sympathetic activity it should be taken at the right time. Maybe RS is the FOOD for sympathetic activity? Or it could be that it stops something that does not allow sympathetic activity by forcing parasympathetic or median activity?
I believe this is oversimplifying things. RS is not a "sympathetic activator", I am sure that the bacterial effects from RS are much more complex, and affect signaling in ways that have both sympathetic and parasympathetic effects.
 

adreno

PR activist
Messages
4,841
F1.large.jpg

I found this showing how lactate is synthesized and oxidized. I am not much of a biochemist, but one important step that I notice is DCA activates pyruvate dehydrogenase (PDH), which requires thiamine as a co-factor. Also a high NADH/NAD ratio will cause problems.

I can see on my organic acids test that both my pyruvate and lactate is high, so this might be a problem for me. Some nutrients that can help oxidize lactate are thiamine, NAD, CoQ10, lipoic acid. A cup of coffee will help also.

http://jasn.asnjournals.org/content/12/suppl_1/S15.full
 
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Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
2,895
I was reading about raw sauerkraut yesterday and reminded that the bacteria produce K2. So I was thinking about all the benefits of Vitamin K2. I don't have time to list them now, but this article is exceptional, if you're interested.

http://www.westonaprice.org/fat-soluble-activators/x-factor-is-vitamin-k2#other

I'm not sure which strain of bacteria is responsible for producing K2 from K1, but I'll look around for that today. Maybe someone else knows that in the meantime.
 

xjhuez

Senior Member
Messages
175
Something I've not seen posted here is the effect of RS (potato starch, in my case) on gut transit time. My 3 tbs "bolus" dose, which I take every other day with breakfast, pushes mine to 72 hours - a full 24 hours longer than my non-RS days. I hadn't expected that, and I'm not sure it means anything beyond additional time for fermentation in the colon.
 

Vegas

Senior Member
Messages
577
Location
Virginia
See attached.


Fermented foods are full of LABs, so this might be a problem. I could perhaps try the SBOs. I might also try to up my R-ALA dose (taking 100mg now).

Thanks. I'm looking at the energy metabolism, especially the Krebs cycle, in an attempt to establish what processes are inhibited to prevent further oxidative stress and thus protect you from killing yourself. While there are nutrient deficiencies that impair the ETC and likely bacterial interference, explaining, in part, why someone may benefit from B2 supplementation, for example, it has to be directly connected to redox sensitive genes that will inhibit energy generation. (I love run-on sentences) It can't be just about nutrient availability, I don't think. It is necessarily tied to your capacity to suppress oxidative stress and thus the competency of your immune system, which are essentially integrated. I have been thinking about the "roadblocks" in the Krebs cycle observed with ME/CFS and am mostly interested in those areas that most closely interact with SCFA production, acetylation, CoQ-10 biosynthesis, succinate production, etc. Stuff that gets back to what I think is necessary to maintain intestinal integrity and by extension, energy metabolism. While it sounds implausible that so much energy could be lost from the GIT, the mechanisms are there. If as they say, 80% or so of the immune response is integrated in the GIT, then it follows that the energy metabolism is similarly connected.

The TCA metabolites always fall off after a dehydrogenation reaction. I see you have no detectable fumarate, which is on the other side of succinate and of course is a product of a dehydrogenation reaction. Need to think about this more, and will ask you some questions off line; when I can.

Regarding the lactate elevation, though, I think this is really more of a feature of not having species that can efficiently carry out lactate dehydrogenation combined with the lack of SCFA's and the effects this produces, probably more of the latter as I'm not aware of a huge contribution from bacterial lactate dehydrogenation. We do know though, that most people with huge concentrations of LAB, an overpopulation, if you will, do not develop elevated lactate. Elevated lactate is a grossly abnormal finding and I don't think can be compatible with good health. Without a intrinsic (host) mechanism for D-lactate metabolism, there has to be a microbial explanation. Sorry, lots of parts to this, I'm sort of thinking out loud.

I do think the problem is less about what organisms you have, and has more to do with what you don't have, specifically those in the lower bowel. Honestly, I think a concentration on restoring SCFA with RS, provided you have some colonizing bifidobacterial strains in place, is going to represent the most effective strategy; you may just have to do this more slowly. The RS does appear to be more efficient at correcting the problems, than the provision of organisms themselves, provided you have some. I can't discount the importance of the bifidobacterial strains because these are critical and are really driving much of what is happening, but I also can't argue with results. I wish I had some data, but my presumption is that butyrate-producing species must have come up because my own inflammatory response is diminished yet I have increased energy. This is what I would predict would happen if intestinal energetics improved.

ALA is going to have a more dramatic effect on dehydrogenation than any supplement I have studied, but I think correcting the lower bowel alkalinity and SCFA deficiency is going to produce much more rapid effects. No reason you couldn't take the ALA, but after my Mercury experience, you would have to understand that I am going to advise everyone against taking this intermittently, and instead, suggesting it be used in accordance with it's half-life. (Even though I'm assuming you have used this in the past without problem) I don't have a problem with the R isomer.

What are you thinking is going to be most effective for you, with regard to the the gut?
 

Vegas

Senior Member
Messages
577
Location
Virginia
This is very interesting. I'm still working on understanding it, but in the meantime I thought I would add what I found.

Increasing intracellular Ca2+ mediates TLR4 trafficking and subsequent activation of IRF3.
Increasing intracellular Ca2+ levels might potentiate LPS induced responses of IRF3 but not NF-kB.
Phospholipase C-2 and intracellular calcium are required for LPS induced TRL4...
Taurine blunts LPS induced increases in intracellular calcium and TNF-a production by Kupffer cells. (This one is a tangent.)
Intracellular calcium involved in LPS stimulated cytokine production.

You can tell I like the intracellular calcium theme:) I haven't been able to understand the nickel/morphine/opioid allergy material yet. I have to look around, sheesh that a combination of a lot of research.

But it may explain why some people are more prone to nickel allergies than others. Low intracellular magnesium seems to be fairly common in CFS. (I like to generalize, too.) Speaking of allergies, would it make sense to wonder if the adrenals are involved? Adrenal insufficiency seems to be common in CFS, too.

Did you say at one point that magnesium is in some way related to very low amounts of bifidobacteria?

Forgive me, all, if I've gone somewhere with this that doesn't make sense.

Yes the catecholamines nearly always play a part. A crappy, but necessary part. The adrenal thing is not really an organic (as in the individual adrenal gland) problem, it is a mitochondrial problem. Cortisol synthesis starts and finishes in the mitochondria.

So your research seems to be pointing closely to my favorite supplement, the calcium channel blocker, magnesium. Of course taurine improves the intracellular availability, so I guess that one makes sense too. I am still not sure of the significance of the magnesium vs. the sulphate in making me feel better, but I sure do love epsom salt baths.
 

Vegas

Senior Member
Messages
577
Location
Virginia
What if one had below detectable limits of succinate and lactate?

Well that is a more complicated picture, I think. You have problems before the ETC. Don't have time to write about this now, for which I apologize. I guess I would wonder about your reactions to supplements. Were you a big B2 responder? Do you have any trouble with vitamin E? Problems with CoQ-10? Have you done anything in the way of detoxification? Yes I know this is general. How long have you been sick?
 

adreno

PR activist
Messages
4,841
What are you thinking is going to be most effective for you, with regard to the the gut?
Thanks again for your very informative post. I do not really have any strategy for this, as I don't know much about it. But I've learned a lot from this thread.

I have tried supplementing butyrate in the past, and this didn't go well (severe allergic reaction, almost anaphylactic). And I never heard about RS until RIpley posted about it here. So if your best idea is focusing (slowly) on RS and bifido strains, that sounds as good as any idea I might have. I have been using this probiotic lately:

http://www.iherb.com/Nature-s-Way-Primadophilus-Probifia-Pearls-60-Capsules/14509

Does this look good to you? On top of that I might add the AOR probiotic 3 (if no objections) for it's butyrate producing properties. I have been taking 1 tbs of RS lately, but am going to reduce to 1 ts.

And I will continue with relevant supplements, R-ALA, Q10, L-carnitine fumerate, B complex, magnesium, taurine, turmeric.

EDIT: I'm adding my bacterial profile from the GI fx, too. It seems I am not doing too bad on the bifido strains, so perhaps I will be all right with the RS eventually.
 

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MeSci

ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?
Messages
8,231
Location
Cornwall, UK
Regarding the lactate elevation, though, I think this is really more of a feature of not having species that can efficiently carry out lactate dehydrogenation combined with the lack of SCFA's and the effects this produces, probably more of the latter as I'm not aware of a huge contribution from bacterial lactate dehydrogenation. We do know though, that most people with huge concentrations of LAB, an overpopulation, if you will, do not develop elevated lactate. Elevated lactate is a grossly abnormal finding and I don't think can be compatible with good health. Without a intrinsic (host) mechanism for D-lactate metabolism, there has to be a microbial explanation. Sorry, lots of parts to this, I'm sort of thinking out loud.

This interesting paper says that most people can metabolise d-lactate.
 

dmholmes

Senior Member
Messages
350
Location
Houston
Well that is a more complicated picture, I think. You have problems before the ETC. Don't have time to write about this now, for which I apologize. I guess I would wonder about your reactions to supplements. Were you a big B2 responder? Do you have any trouble with vitamin E? Problems with CoQ-10? Have you done anything in the way of detoxification? Yes I know this is general. How long have you been sick?

Out of the huge pile of supplements I have the only things I've responded positively to are Super Thisilyn, Milk Thistle, and biotin. And in a bad way vitamin D3. I've had the chronic fatigue for almost 6 years.
 

Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
2,895
F1.large.jpg

I found this showing how lactate is synthesized and oxidized. I am not much of a biochemist, but one important step that I notice is DCA activates pyruvate dehydrogenase (PDH), which requires thiamine as a co-factor. Also a high NADH/NAD ratio will cause problems.

I can see on my organic acids test that both my pyruvate and lactate is high, so this might be a problem for me. Some nutrients that can help oxidize lactate are thiamine, NAD, CoQ10, lipoic acid. A cup of coffee will help also.

http://jasn.asnjournals.org/content/12/suppl_1/S15.full

Why would a cup of coffee help? And would you have to drink it black?

That's a good article. I see it mentions not enough oxygen as a possible cause of overproduction of pyruvate and lactate.
 

Asklipia

Senior Member
Messages
999
I was reading about raw sauerkraut yesterday and reminded that the bacteria produce K2. So I was thinking about all the benefits of Vitamin K2. I don't have time to list them now, but this article is exceptional, if you're interested.

http://www.westonaprice.org/fat-soluble-activators/x-factor-is-vitamin-k2#other

I'm not sure which strain of bacteria is responsible for producing K2 from K1, but I'll look around for that today. Maybe someone else knows that in the meantime.
When I took K2 my teeth were very smooth, and this is happening again on the third day of taking half a coffee spoon of Potato Starch.
I suppose it is feeding bacteria that produce K2!
 

Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
2,895

If it is a question of anaerobic vs aerobic, I could see how RS and the right probiotic would help. LPS causes thick, dirty blood that ruins circulation and doesn't carry enough oxygen.

How long ago was the test that said you were high in lactate and pyruvate? Maybe the numbers have already improved since you said some symptoms have already improved and you have been able to reduce iodine.

Have you ever had CO2 measured?
 

adreno

PR activist
Messages
4,841
If it is a question of anaerobic vs aerobic, I could see how RS and the right probiotic would help. LPS causes thick, dirty blood that ruins circulation and doesn't carry enough oxygen.

How long ago was the test that said you were high in lactate and pyruvate? Maybe the numbers have already improved since you said some symptoms have already improved and you have been able to reduce iodine.

Have you ever had CO2 measured?
That test was 6 years ago, I have definitely improved since then. At that time I wasn't able to do much and mostly bedbound, almost any kind of activity would trigger a crash. Now I'm fairly functional, although I never feel well. Too much anaerobic work seems to trigger symptoms, especially work that involves the big muscles of the quads.

I think I had Co2 measured once, it was very high.
 

Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
2,895
When I took K2 my teeth were very smooth, and this is happening again on the third day of taking half a coffee spoon of Potato Starch.
I suppose it is feeding bacteria that produce K2!


I am still looking for the specific strain that converts K1 to K2, but in the meantime have some more thoughts about K2. One thought is that now I can see why it's good to mix the green grasses in with RS. The bacteria will convert the k1 to k2. If you don't have the bacteria to convert K1 to K2, instead of blood thinning of K2 by placing calcium where it belongs, you get blood coagulation.
 

adreno

PR activist
Messages
4,841
I am still looking for the specific strain that converts K1 to K2, but in the meantime have some more thoughts about K2. One thought is that now I can see why it's good to mix the green grasses in with RS. The bacteria will convert the k1 to k2. If you don't have the bacteria to convert K1 to K2, instead of blood thinning of K2 by placing calcium where it belongs, you get blood coagulation.
K1 causes blood coagulation?
 

Violeta

Senior Member
Messages
2,895
That test was 6 years ago, I have definitely improved since then. At that time I wasn't able to do much and mostly bedbound, almost any kind of activity would trigger a crash. Now I'm fairly functional, although I never feel well. Too much anaerobic work seems to trigger symptoms, especially work that involves the big muscles of the quads.

I think I had Co2 measured once, it was very high.

Yeah, I would bet your numbers are already much better.

I was wondering about CO2 because I thought aerobic metabolism creates more C02, while anaerobic metabolism causes a deficiency. But I'm not sure, I'll wait and see if Vegas has some input on that.