Trouble with adenosyl-B12 -weight gain

[Star-Anise]

Hi all, since I was still having low energy with methyl-B12, and methylfolate (although marked improvements overall), I decided to try introduce adenosyl-B12, and carnitine fumarate.
Well the major energy improvements are awesome, I seem to be in hyper-detox mode. I feel bloated, and I have gained about 2-3 pounds, & the weight is rising daily. This seems to be the case with or without the carnitine.
My doses are small:
adenosyl B12 - 1.075 mg daily
carnitine fumarate - approx 50 mg.

+ I have had to cut back my methyl B12 to 500mcg daily
and my methylfolate - I'm thinking of cutting it back a bit more too. I'm currently at 125 mcg

I have found some limited info on internet that seems to make sense for my situation, but I would welcome any feedback that anyone can give:

Toxin excess is a common reason for rapid weight gain, both as a defense mechanism, and because the toxins are crashing metabolism. Individuals can gain 25 – 50 pounds in a year when acute toxin challenges go unmanaged.
Thus, toxins are stuffed into your fat in the first place to get them away from your metabolism. When they are in your circulation they can readily disrupt your metabolism, causing weight gain. Yet, as you lose weight they go back into your circulation. You must effectively clear them or you will feel crummy, fatigued, irritable, and/or simply not lose any weight.
Sometimes you will have no trouble losing weight for a while, and then hit a toxic layer of fat. Although you don’t change your diet or exercise (you possibly experience a bit more stress), you now find yourself in a toxic slow down. Your weight loss will stop or you will start gaining weight as your body now holds water in an effort to dilute the poisons. If you get frustrated you’ll start eating more, which will actually make you feel much better, since the toxins will be packaged back up into fat and sent back to storage. Of course, you won’t feel much better next time you look at the scale.
Some individuals have a baseline of being too toxic with clogged plumbing as they try to embark upon weight loss efforts. Weight loss under such circumstances is difficult and such individuals need to start out not only by improving diet quality, following the Leptin Diet, and doing moderate exercise, but also by focusing on their personal detoxification needs.

From: http://www.wellnessresources.com/weight_tips/articles/detoxification_during_weight_loss/

This description seems to be applicable to my situation. I looked up this guy's Leptin Diet, & it basically seems to be low-carb. I can do this, I guess, if I need to. My diet is already so very restricted due to my intolerance to sulfur, so I'll give it a try.

I have been taking huge amounts of bioflavonoids, and Calcium D Glucarate to support my detox for some time, but now this seems to just exacerbate the water retention, bloatedness, and weight gain even at tiny doses.

I know Yasko equates use of adenosyl B12 with lead/and aluminum excretion.... anyone have experience with this in particular?

I'm reluctant to stop the adenosyl just because my energy = awesome. Stable, and clear headedness in a way that I have not experienced in almost a decade.

Is it just a phase? Should I just let it do it's thing? Drink lots of water... and be patient? I thought that maybe I could try to sweat it out, and thought that I could go to a sauna or a hot yoga class....

Someone just suggested use of chanca piedra to support detox. I can look into this as well. I have used this before when I was far more sick with mixed results. I am worried that any extra detox agents are going to continue to push me even further into this hyper detox mode. What I know for sure is that I cannot handle a bunch of sulfur based substances that are traditionally used to cleanse the liver like Milk thistle, and such... These increase my fatigue greatly...

I have been considering getting some tests done re: phase1/phase2 detox. I know I have several cyp snps, but I do not have these in my signature. I can add if this will help...

I am quite caffeine sensitive (I get edgy easily). Someone suggested that this means that I have slow phase 1. I think I have slow phase "everything," lol.

THANKS EVERYONE

 

[Violeta]

I have heard of toxin release causing weight gain, I do think I am having the same problem. There is a lady who says that taking clay absorbs the toxins. Her site is www.uniquehealing.com. I do take the clay, but on and off. I have a hard time being consistent with it. You have to have a good clay, or else they taste very gritty. You can take it in capsules, which is easier.

 

[kelly138]

I think I am in this club too - I was started on "methylation" stuff a year ago Nov - well started - things were crazy - no one bothered to check to see if my body was ready for it and event though I went slowly I still reacted to everything - I gained about 20 lbs in 2 or 3 months and gained about 10 since then.

 

[Freddd]

Hi all, since I was still having low energy with methyl-B12, and methylfolate (although marked improvements overall), I decided to try introduce adenosyl-B12, and carnitine fumarate.
Well the major energy improvements are awesome, I seem to be in hyper-detox mode. I feel bloated, and I have gained about 2-3 pounds, & the weight is rising daily. This seems to be the case with or without the carnitine.
My doses are small:
adenosyl B12 - 1.075 mg daily
carnitine fumarate - approx 50 mg.

+ I have had to cut back my methyl B12 to 500mcg daily
and my methylfolate - I'm thinking of cutting it back a bit more too. I'm currently at 125 mcg

I have found some limited info on internet that seems to make sense for my situation, but I would welcome any feedback that anyone can give:



From: http://www.wellnessresources.com/weight_tips/articles/detoxification_during_weight_loss/

This description seems to be applicable to my situation. I looked up this guy's Leptin Diet, & it basically seems to be low-carb. I can do this, I guess, if I need to. My diet is already so very restricted due to my intolerance to sulfur, so I'll give it a try.

I have been taking huge amounts of bioflavonoids, and Calcium D Glucarate to support my detox for some time, but now this seems to just exacerbate the water retention, bloatedness, and weight gain even at tiny doses.

I know Yasko equates use of adenosyl B12 with lead/and aluminum excretion.... anyone have experience with this in particular?

I'm reluctant to stop the adenosyl just because my energy = awesome. Stable, and clear headedness in a way that I have not experienced in almost a decade.

Is it just a phase? Should I just let it do it's thing? Drink lots of water... and be patient? I thought that maybe I could try to sweat it out, and thought that I could go to a sauna or a hot yoga class....

Someone just suggested use of chanca piedra to support detox. I can look into this as well. I have used this before when I was far more sick with mixed results. I am worried that any extra detox agents are going to continue to push me even further into this hyper detox mode. What I know for sure is that I cannot handle a bunch of sulfur based substances that are traditionally used to cleanse the liver like Milk thistle, and such... These increase my fatigue greatly...

I have been considering getting some tests done re: phase1/phase2 detox. I know I have several cyp snps, but I do not have these in my signature. I can add if this will help...

I am quite caffeine sensitive (I get edgy easily). Someone suggested that this means that I have slow phase 1. I think I have slow phase "everything," lol.

THANKS EVERYONE

Hi Star-anise,

Edema starts for me within hours of going into paradoxical folate deficiency. The water starts coming off as soon as the methylfolate dose is sufficient. I gain about 3 pounds a day when that happens. It was the key to ending congestive heart failure for me. Adding 3 pounds of water daily is one of those "call the doctor immediately" symptoms with CHF.

 

[Star-Anise]

@Freddd
So *do not* decrease methyl folate as I was thinking... &titrate it up slowly? I was thinking decrease it because I seemed to be in hyper detox mode... But maybe that was me misinterpreting the symptoms... As well, I used to take more (another 120mcg in afternoon) & felt way less fatigued when I decreased my dose recently prior to starting the adenosyl-B12. But u are right... That's when the water started.... & it just started piling on with the added adenosyl-B12. Any more advice Freddd? Do u think that there is any truth to the toxin release = weight gain theory? Thanks for your feedback. Very much appreciated S

 

[Freddd]

@Freddd
So *do not* decrease methyl folate as I was thinking... &titrate it up slowly? I was thinking decrease it because I seemed to be in hyper detox mode... But maybe that was me misinterpreting the symptoms... As well, I used to take more (another 120mcg in afternoon) & felt way less fatigued when I decreased my dose recently prior to starting the adenosyl-B12. But u are right... That's when the water started.... & it just started piling on with the added adenosyl-B12. Any more advice Freddd? Do u think that there is any truth to the toxin release = weight gain theory? Thanks for your feedback. Very much appreciated S

When I get onset of edema I take an immediate dose of 4000mcg of Methylfolate. Sometimes I have to take 3 times a day, extra, to my usual dose of 8mg to get the water off and keep it off. Incorrect theories like that make it worse and worse. These days it happens when I tried a single extra 25mg of B1 a day for 2 days. I had the worst cheilitis since glutathione It took 2 days to get rid of all the water and keep paradoxical folate deficiency at bay.

Do u think that there is any truth to the toxin release = weight gain theory?

To put it mildly I think it is dangerous nonsense. I know a woman who's doctor changed her to to 5mg folic acid because Medicaid wouldn't pay for Deplin and she has put on 100 pounds in 2 years and has quarter size lesions all over her body. She had been healing and getting better on Metafolin. I didn't know last summer when I saw her. She fell down some stairs because of neurological damage and fragmented her leg bones. I hope she survives until I can see her in June. I don't know any way to contact her.

 

[Star-Anise]

@Freddd I'm increasing my methylfolate slowly with good success. I'm curious with your usual dose of 8mg methyfolate, how much methyl-B12 and adenosyl-B12 to you take on a daily basis? Thanks for all your help. S

 

[Freddd]

@Freddd I'm increasing my methylfolate slowly with good success. I'm curious with your usual dose of 8mg methyfolate, how much methyl-B12 and adenosyl-B12 to you take on a daily basis? Thanks for all your help. S

Hi Star-Anise,

I'm currently taking about 90-120mg of Country Life Methyl B12 daily in 3 several hour doses. I put these tablets along the upper gums, 2 to 6, non stacked, and then squish them around as the soften to expose the inside to the tissues.

I also taking 10-20mg of Enzymatic Therapy MeCbl and 10-20mg of Anabol Naturals Dibencoplex. I grind the ENZY tablets and mix in the powder of the capsules. I put a pinch under my tongue each 15-20 minutes for several hours and a larger set of pinches along the lower gum and lip. The fastest absorption appears to happen when the concentration of b12 is highest which is when each pinch is new. SO I keep adding a little bit at a time to maximize absorption.

Don't make the mistake of assuming that there is any relationship between the b12 amounts and folate amounts. Anything over about 100mcg of absorbed b12 daily is sufficient for any amount of folate needed to stop folate deficiency/insufficiency symptoms. The amount is what I need is for CNS neurology healing. If I didn't need this much for my brain and cord I would probably be taking about 15mg/day total. The folate would be the same.

 

[vortex]

@Star-Anise what brand of adenosyl do you take ?

 

[Freddd]

I think I am in this club too - I was started on "methylation" stuff a year ago Nov - well started - things were crazy - no one bothered to check to see if my body was ready for it and event though I went slowly I still reacted to everything - I gained about 20 lbs in 2 or 3 months and gained about 10 since then.

Hi Kelly,
Edema? or fat? Do you have other symptoms of paradoxical folate deficiency? How much methylfolate are you taking? If it is edema, then it could all come off in a week or two.

 

[kelly138]

Hi Kelly,
Edema? or fat? Do you have other symptoms of paradoxical folate deficiency? How much methylfolate are you taking? If it is edema, then it could all come off in a week or two.

I am not seeing the swelling in feet and hands like I get for edema so fat

I am folonic acid intolerant. Not sure what of my other symptoms match up right now. All these symptoms drive me crazy but I do have an increase in pain like flu this past couple weeks and was really bad 2 days ago. I have burning mouth, irritated lips, tonsil stones and left side drainage problems (not necessarily sinus). I get lots of cold extremities and internal vibrations too.

Right now I am taking 800 mcg MFol.

 

[Freddd]

I am not seeing the swelling in feet and hands like I get for edema so fat

I am folonic acid intolerant. Not sure what of my other symptoms match up right now. All these symptoms drive me crazy but I do have an increase in pain like flu this past couple weeks and was really bad 2 days ago. I have burning mouth, irritated lips, tonsil stones and left side drainage problems (not necessarily sinus). I get lots of cold extremities and internal vibrations too.

Right now I am taking 800 mcg MFol.

Kelly, Here is a list of symptoms. With 800mcg of methylfolate along with MeCbl I wouldn't be at all surprised if donut hole folate deficiency. Check put the groups of symptoms. Two or three are often as many as some people have until it gets worse.

Version 1.2 12/08/2013

Group 1 – Hypokalemia onset. Symptoms may appear with serum potassium as high as 4.3. May become dangerous if ignored. Considered “rare” with CyCbl (Cyanocobalamin) it is very common with MeCbl (methylcobalamin) and AdoCbl (adenosylcobalamin) and less so with HyCbl (Hydroxycobalamin).

There does not appear to be a clear order of onset. The order of onset varies widely from person to person but many appear consistent for each episode for any given person. There tend to be more and more intense symptoms as it gets worse. Some people have ended up in the ER because of not recognizing the symptoms.

IBS – Steady constipation, Nausea, Vomiting, Paralyzed Ileum,

Hard knots of muscle, Sudden muscle spasms when relaxed, Sudden muscle spasms when stretching , Sudden muscle spasms when kneeling, Sudden muscle spasms when reaching , Sudden muscle spasms when turning upper body to side, Tightening of muscles, spasms and excruciating pain in neck muscles, waking up screaming in pain from muscle spasms in legs. Muscle weakness

Abnormal heart rhythms (dysrhythmias), increased pulse rate, increased blood pressure

Emotional changes and/or instability, dermal or sub-dermal Itching, and if not treated potentially paralysis and death.


Group 2a - Both

IBS – Diarrhea alternating with constipation, IBS – Normal alternating with constipation


Group 2b – Either or both

Headache, Increased malaise, Fatigue



Group 3 - Induced and/or Paradoxical Folate deficiency or insufficiency

These symptoms appear in 2 forms generally, the milder symptoms that start with partial methylation block and the more severe symptoms that come on as partial methylation block gets worse or very quickly with methyltrap onset.

Edema - An additional thing I would like to mention. I would never have found it without 5 years of watching the onset of paradoxical folate insufficiency and trying to catch it earlier and earlier and to figure out what was causing it and to reverse it. For me the onset order goes back to the day of onset now with edema and a sudden increase of weight. I noticed that within 2 hours of taking sufficient Metafolin I would have an increase in urine output.


Old symptoms returning

Edema

Angular Cheilitis, Canker sores,

Skin rashes, increased acne, Skin peeling around fingernails, Skin cracking and peeling at fingertips,

Increased hypersensitive responses, Runny nose, Increased allergies, Increased Multiple Chemical Sensitivities, Increased asthma, rapidly increasing Generalized inflammation in body, Increased Inflammation pain in muscles, Increased Inflammation pain in joints, Achy muscles, Flu like symptoms

IBS – Steady diarrhea, IBS – Diarrhea alternating with normal, Stomach ache, Uneasy digestive tract,

Coated tongue, Depression, Less sociable, Impaired planning and logic, Brain fog, Low energy, Light headedness, Sluggishness, Increase irritability, Heart palpitations,


Longer term, very serious

Loss of reflexes, Fevers, Forgetfulness, Confusion, Difficulty walking, Behavioral disorders, Dementia, Reduced sense of taste, bleeding easily




Group 4 - HyCbl onset, degraded MeCbl onset, MeCbl after photolytic breakdown onset.

Itchy bumps generally on scalp or face that develops to acne like lesions in a few days from start.

 

[kelly138]

right now about 3 mg AdenoB12 (1/3 of AN dibencoplex tablet) and under 1 mg MB12 (given spouse about 1/6 of ETMB12 and I take the rest each day) amd 800 mcg MFol. I haven't tried to up the MFol again - few weeks ago felt 1200 was too much.

low K - maybe - I have upped my K intake with more bananas and the K-bicarb i have - too much puts me into heart arrhythmia so I have to be careful - very careful - blood was drawn last week included K in CMP - don't have results yet. Historically I do have many readings of low K.

stools are showing better shape so not a constant runny mush - I take a lot of binders right now too

headache yes - general crappy feelings - yes - I am dumping stuff I assume - lots of back pains - muscle aches all over (might be K related too) - urine stinks and more urgent at times - lots of nasty smells /tastes - irritated, metallic, burning mouth - athletes foot on left foot - inner vibrations come and go - strange sores (had them before) in edge of scalp by ears - MCS varies - overall less sensitive over time but some times a lot more sensitive and getting other strange smells at time (but not as bad as a few years ago) - dry lips and eyes I am blaming on the weather

I sat on a cold floor a couple days ago too long - we were in a freeze (we rarely get them) and I had new PCs to set up (really 2 and first is still not set up but second is) and the only place to put extra monitor was on the floor - I got chilled there and our air is very dry - also unusual for us in the winter - normally we are damp inside and out (live on the coast - avatar is baby jellyfish that washed in one spring)

brain fog varies - some days no problem - last couple has been somewhat of one but can't say it is worse overall

I have a history of edema - pulmonary hypertension secondary to obstructive sleep apnea. I know to monitor feet and hands for it and if I can see veins sticking out it isn't bad but I have suspected also increase in fluids in the torso these days based on pj pants but the feet and hands are fine. I was the one that picked up the swelling in one leg before being diagnosed with OSA; my doc at the time missed it.

 

[Star-Anise]

@Star-Anise what brand of adenosyl do you take ?

Hi there, I'm using the Source Naturals sublingual adenosyl-B12 and it seems to be working so far. Most days now I'm not getting symptoms of super-agitation, and I'm quite happy with how my body is changing. I'm still up about 4 lbs, but it's obvious that I am building more muscle. I'm still working on titrating the methyl-folate as Freddd suggested, but I'm going quite slowly. I'm at about 500mcg/day now.

 

[whodathunkit]

Hi Star-Anise,

I'm currently taking about 90-120mg of Country Life Methyl B12 daily in 3 several hour doses. I put these tablets along the upper gums, 2 to 6, non stacked, and then squish them around as the soften to expose the inside to the tissues.

I also taking 10-20mg of Enzymatic Therapy MeCbl and 10-20mg of Anabol Naturals Dibencoplex. I grind the ENZY tablets and mix in the powder of the capsules. I put a pinch under my tongue each 15-20 minutes for several hours and a larger set of pinches along the lower gum and lip. The fastest absorption appears to happen when the concentration of b12 is highest which is when each pinch is new. SO I keep adding a little bit at a time to maximize absorption.

Don't make the mistake of assuming that there is any relationship between the b12 amounts and folate amounts. Anything over about 100mcg of absorbed b12 daily is sufficient for any amount of folate needed to stop folate deficiency/insufficiency symptoms. The amount is what I need is for CNS neurology healing. If I didn't need this much for my brain and cord I would probably be taking about 15mg/day total. The folate would be the same.

Another question for Freddd: Do you eat and drink "around" your B12 lozenges/powders? That is, do you eat and drink while all this is in your mouth, without washing the lozenges and powder away? One problem I'm having is it's hard to talk to people, eat, or drink during the hours I'm holding this stuff in my mouth. Am I being too anal about it?

Also, what about your injectable mB12? How does that fit into your dosage? I've seen you post the absorption of injectable v sublingual, but would you mind posting it again? I'm starting to take notes but can't find that bit of info again.

Thanks as always for input...

 

[Star-Anise]

Hi everyone, still getting weight gain up to 10 lbs now. I've been increasing my methyfolate, and I feel better, I feel as if the edema is decreasing, but the scale is not going down, only up.
up 2 lbs this week!
I'm wondering if it is related to the introduction of nuts/seeds, high copper foods. With the introduction of adenosyl-B12 my gut seems to have significantly healed. I can tolerate way more foods. But perhaps these new foods are contributing to my weight gain.
I'm going to have to start counting calories, and carbs again which was what I had to do when I was more overweight, and more insulin resistant. I'm "resistant" to doing this, lol, as it just takes so much mental energy!
It's difficult to tell if it is all edema, and fat.
I have increased strength at times, and seemingly more cardiovascular endurance at times. So I'm assuming some of it is muscle.
I'm on such a little dose of carnitine, maybe 25mg. But it still causes an energy dip and sometimes an energy crash in afternoon, as I take it at lunch. I find however that it helps contribute to a rebound energy increase in evening.
My situation is complicated. I'm sure there is liver, adrenal, pancreas, leaky gut, and any other organ systems contributing, lol. I have been looking for a practitioner that has expertise in these areas, post-blasto infection, blood sugar dysregulation, adrenal fatigue, and such, and I have now had 3 turn me down so far, lol!
Sorry if post is a little vent-ish... I think my vanity card is being played, & I'm worried about the other problems returning that I had with the increased weight on my body when I was more overweight - increased insulin resistance & fatigue.
Well I am planning on trying 4mg methylfolate today. Hope something helps. I've dramatically increased it since the time I started this post. At that time I don't think I was even at 1mg/day.
If anyone has any breakthroughs please share...
S

 

[Violeta]

Thanks to a combination of Vegas and Gestalt, we've been looking at the role of gram negative bacteria and the endotoxin that they give off when they are broken down, lipopolysaccharide.

This quote has been running through my head the past couple of days: Some bacteria make you fat and some bacteria make you skinny, so I thought I would google lipopolysaccharide and see if anyone had tied it in to weight gain. I found this article by Chris Kresser.

http://chriskresser.com/how-inflammation-makes-you-fat-and-diabetic-and-vice-versa

If you are interested in some good ideas for dealing with the LPS, (lipopolysaccharides), you can google Vegas or look in the resistant starch thread current messages.

 

[Star-Anise]

@Violeta thanks so very much! I'm going to be a reading through all of this for sure!
Update.... 2lbs down by just regular ways (diet, increased exertion), as well as lower copper diet & I'm trialing some kidney glandulars - they seem to be helping with my elimination. Sigh. And another turn of the wheel...

 

[whodathunkit]

@Star-Anise...glad you're down a couple. That's always good news! I myself have been fighting the battle of the bulge for over a decade. I'm insulin resistant, inflamed, the whole nine yards.

One thing that's reputed to soak up endotoxins is carrot salad. Just grate a carrot, put a little coconut oil and maybe vinegar (if you can tolerate vinegar) on it, bit of salt, and eat. Yummy. Plus the coconut oil has antibacterial properties as well as healthy fats.

But don't slather it in mayo or whatever...that negates some or all of the purported benefits.

@Violeta...thanks for that link. It maybe another "missing link" for me. Although I do disagree with him that fructose is an inflammatory agent. I find when I eat lots of fruit my inflammation goes down.

 

[veronica_corningstone]

Speaking of gut bacteria and body weight, the Bulletproof Executive had this interesting blog post where he lists histamine producing/neutral/degrading probiotics.