Urea Cycle: It's a real Pisser - Ammonia, Arginine, Ornithine, Citrulline.

[dbkita]

Sorry if I offended you but it was intended as a joke. I can see this is very serious for you. Good luck.

 

[xjhuez]

Sorry if I offended you but it was intended as a joke. I can see this is very serious for you. Good luck.

Not offended, frustrated. I do take this seriously.

 

[Wayne]

If there is a GI process going on that is producing ammonia (parasites, low-level GI infection), I'd love to be able to try to deal with those and see how my symptoms are affected.

Hi Christopher, Hi All,

Just thought I'd mention that Lyme bacteria can also release a lot of ammonia. I seem to recall even more is released when someone initiates a Lyme protocol and creates a bacterial dieoff. Apparently, some people who do saunas to assist with the detox from Lyme dieoff can wreak of an ammonia smell, I think both in the sauna and for a while afterwards. --- My understanding is that ammonia is extremely harmful to the brain. Could the following snippet indicate a partial reason for PEM?

Athletes who take a hefty dose of L-ornithine an hour before training get less tired. The amino acid stops the ammonia concentration in the blood from rising, write Japanese researchers in the European Journal of Clinical Nutrition.

 

[knackers323]

Anyone seeing benefit from lowering ammonia?

 

[Christopher]

Anyone seeing benefit from lowering ammonia?

yes, when I can. it's complicated.

 

[xjhuez]

Anyone seeing benefit from lowering ammonia?

I feel much better on yucca. I assume because it's lowering ammonia, but I've never actually been tested, so it's conjecture.

 

[Vegas]

I feel much better on yucca. I assume because it's lowering ammonia, but I've never actually been tested, so it's conjecture.

Yucca or cassava is highly bifidogenic. It is a great substrate for bifidobacteria; depending upon the environmental factors, this could have a small or a huge effect on increasing bifidobacteria. In my opinion, this increase in bifidobacteria numbers (changes in pH, production of SCFA, etc.) likely represents the principal mechanism of action.

Another good bifidogenic food: blueberries.

 

[xjhuez]

Yucca or cassava is highly bifidogenic. It is a great substrate for bifidobacteria; depending upon the environmental factors, this could have a small or a huge effect on increasing bifidobacteria. In my opinion, this increase in bifidobacteria numbers (changes in pH, production of SCFA, etc.) likely represents the principal mechanism of action.

Interesting - I didn't know that.

The internets gave me the impression that yucca simply binds to ammonia in the gut, thus keeping serum ammonia low. Why I potentially have too much ammonia in my gut is an unknown. Possibly a faulty urea cycle or an overgrowth of something nasty (or both). Regardless, if yucca is also a beneficial prebiotic, that's great.


Edit - I'm using Yucca schidigera, not Manihot esculenta

 

[physicsstudent13]

I had terrible liver damage after surgery and I think I may have had encephalopathy with high AST/ALT higher than 80/260. My thinking was really slowed and I was so exhausted I was bedridden for 2 months, barely could get up to eat with a trach. It seems like I may have had high ammonia or liver disease. I'm thinking of suing the surgeon because he trached me on a size 6

 

[ramkishore]

Hi

No one in this thread said about Activated charcoal for ammonia detoxification.I could be wrong in misinterpreting the info.

So far after reading this thread, here are my takehomes:

1. Reasons for excess ammonia :
   1.1 : CBS Upregualtion
   1.2 Urea Cycle fault
   1.3 Nasty Bacteria
   
   I will be thankful if someone can tell me how to figure out which exactly is the one for a particular person keeping low cost as a criterion.
   
2. Yucca and Butyric acid does not bind to ammonia.It is prebiotic that increases certain bifido bacteria which can fight bacteria which produce ammonia.
3. Ammonia has serious effects on brian.
4. Be careful with entric coatedness and OH part of ca and Mg which can disturb the Ph of stomach which is acidic and acidic nature is must for its functioning effectively.
5. Butyric acid is produced when bacteria in your gut process and ferment dietary fiber. Thus, low-fiber and low-carb diets may increase the body's need for this acid and it may be taken to enhance a diet already rich fruits and vegetables.
6. Things that make elevated ammonia worse
   Protein
   Amino acids
   Citrate, malate and amino acid chelate supplement

If someone can correct or add any information, it will be very helpful for others too.

 

[heapsreal]

Hi

No one in this thread said about Activated charcoal for ammonia detoxification.I could be wrong in misinterpreting the info.

So far after reading this thread, here are my takehomes:

1. Reasons for excess ammonia :
   1.1 : CBS Upregualtion
   1.2 Urea Cycle fault
   1.3 Nasty Bacteria
   
   I will be thankful if someone can tell me how to figure out which exactly is the one for a particular person keeping low cost as a criterion.
   
2. Yucca and Butyric acid does not bind to ammonia.It is prebiotic that increases certain bifido bacteria which can fight bacteria which produce ammonia.
3. Ammonia has serious effects on brian.
4. Be careful with entric coatedness and OH part of ca and Mg which can disturb the Ph of stomach which is acidic and acidic nature is must for its functioning effectively.
5. Butyric acid is produced when bacteria in your gut process and ferment dietary fiber. Thus, low-fiber and low-carb diets may increase the body's need for this acid and it may be taken to enhance a diet already rich fruits and vegetables.
6. Things that make elevated ammonia worse
   Protein
   Amino acids
   Citrate, malate and amino acid chelate supplement

If someone can correct or add any information, it will be very helpful for others too.

ornithine alpha ketogluterate and amino acid helps lower ammonia by recycling it into glutamine. I also think glutamine also has a way of dealing with ammonia too?

 

[ahmo]

@ramkishore I use butyrate w/ meals (and after detox coffee enemas), and ornithine, arginine, citrulline, lysine. i started w/ yucca as tincture, since I'm avoiding starch. It tasted really awful, so I was glad to give it up when I discovered ornithine. I self-test for the aminoes, do not always need all of them. When I do, I'm using 1/8 tsp citrulline, 1/4 tsp arginine, 1/2 tsp ornithine, lysine. I still don't understand the relationships between them, but you can find some very good info here: http://www.vitaminstuff.com/amino-acid-ornithine.html

 

[Critterina]

@ramkishore I I self-test for the aminoes, do not always need all of them.

@ahmo ,
Very interesting: how do you self-test for the aminos?
Crit

 

[ahmo]

@Critterina I use a self-testing method which is a variation on muscle testing. I learned it just as I was collapsing into ME, so there's been plenty of time for me to build trust w/ it. Self-testing guided me through a very scary episode of runaway detox a few months ago. I'll either put one hand in contact w/ my supps, or, more typically, just contact the container and ask body. Caledonia has linked this really simple method, 3 minute vid!

I've often thought to inquire, how's it going w/ the pituitary tumor?

Self-testing http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Ex59wHLk3Q0

 

[Critterina]

@Critterina I use a self-testing method which is a variation on muscle testing. I learned it just as I was collapsing into ME, so there's been plenty of time for me to build trust w/ it. Self-testing guided me through a very scary episode of runaway detox a few months ago. I'll either put one hand in contact w/ my supps, or, more typically, just contact the container and ask body. Caledonia has linked this really simple method, 3 minute vid!

I've often thought to inquire, how's it going w/ the pituitary tumor?

Self-testing http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=Ex59wHLk3Q0

Thanks for that response. Muscle testing has never worked on me, so I would be starting out with low confidence. Three different practitioners have tried it with me, and the last one had a lot of confidence in it and in her ability to use it. Who knows why it doesn't work with me.

Turns out the pituitary tumor is likely a non-player in my adrenal insufficiency. It's too small to cause the pressure that would be needed to have that affect. So we will take another picture in a year (December so I don't have to meet my out-of-pocket) to see whether it's grown. Except for GH, all my other pituitary functions seem to be normal. Low ACTH response, but that's an interesting thing in terms of interpretation.

My serum cortisol tests mornings at the low end of the normal range, but not abnormal (6-7 range). My ACTH response doubles the pre-stim number within an hour, which apparently was the criteria for a normal response and is still used by some doctors (namely, the three endos that I have seen). The Merck Manual, Lancet, and the Annals of Medicine from the College of Physicians all use another criteria: the cortisol level has to get over 20 within a half hour. I fail that test entirely, and moreso now than before. BUT the treatment for failing this is biological doses of hydrocortisone or prednisone or other glucocorticoid, and I AM taking that (6 mg prednisone), in spite of the doctors saying that my results are "normal". And my symptoms have all gone away with that dose.

So, any worry I would have is that in a traumatic event (car accident, etc.) would be that my adrenals could respond sufficiently to keep me alive. Well, I choose not to worry. My time will be up someday, hopefully not too soon. Hopefully not in a car accident where injectable steriods would save me. I carry 50-60 mg in my purse, just in case. If I get in a car accident and I'm conscious, I'll take it. If I'm not conscious, I'll just have to trust God that I won't go before my time.

Crit

 

[Jackb23]

Recently had a metabolomics study done and they found high concentrations of urate and perturbations of the urea cycle. My naive doctor asked me if I had been eating a ton of meat and wanted to pin it on dietary issues. I am attempting to supplement with ornithine now. One question I did have is if my urate levels are super high does that mean my ammonia levels are likely high too or does it mean that my urea cycle is having to work super hard to clean out my body, but is able to do such? I have posted their findings below (second paragraph).