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Huge improvement in two hours

Christopher

Senior Member
Messages
576
Location
Pennsylvania
A couple of of the exclusion criteria seem problematic for some of us:
  • Presence of an active bowel leak, acute abdomen, active intestinal disease, or significant bowel dysfunction
  • Known or suspected allergies to...milk protein
The leaky gut protocol used by Maes, and maybe others, excludes milk, so presumably milk protein allergy - or sensitivity - is thought to play a part in leaky gut, at least for some people. (Or it may be lactose that that diet is designed to exclude.)

Maybe this study is effectively testing a treatment for a different sub-group from that which many of us may fall into.
Culturelle has dairy, that's all.
 

Lou

Senior Member
Messages
582
Location
southeast US
Can I ask, as a lot of the bits are lost on me, but would this do me any harm at all or is it just a supplement?

Thank you, anything is worth a go!


Hi @cosmo

Well, we have me/cfs, what may harm us is relative to that overarching state.
 
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Lou

Senior Member
Messages
582
Location
southeast US
Hi Hip,

The reason you have a leaky gut in most cases is because of gram positive bacteria. Some species of strep, enterococcus, lactobacillus etc. form biofilms and create oxidative stress on the intestine walls as they produce hydrogen peroxide at greater than ROS levels .....

The hydrogen peroxide lyses the cells in the walls causing increased intestinal permeability (leaky gut) allowing small and large particles to pass through ....

This is the undetectable infection I have been blabbering on about ..... Once these bacteria break through the intestine walls they are attacked by the immune system .... continuously .... once broken through they also have direct access to the lymphatic system where they can take up residence and give the immune system a really, really hard time .... The lymphatic system is then placed under further oxidative stress from the bacteria within ....

System wide inflammation occurs from LTA Lipoteichoic Acid (Gram+ Bacteria Skins) which induces the inflammatory response, as you have stated.

The immune system burns out ...... The lymphatic system is taken out ..... result = ME/CFS

Happy New Year :)



Hi @Hip I kept thinking/hoping you might address this post. I was quite inclined to trial Del-Immune V until I read Elph68's thoughts on gram positive bacteria.

Am I missing something, you are, aren't you, Elph68, saying this supplement would be counter productive, right?
 

Antares in NYC

Senior Member
Messages
582
Location
USA
Ok, having nothing to lose, I decided to try this supplement.
Started yesterday. Took a total to 5 capsules through the day. By the end of the day I felt some sort of uptick in attention, like the brain fog had lifted a little bit. It felt promising.

Woke up this morning after a pretty bad night of sleep (as usual). I noticed the weird visual effects (light sensitivity, "floaters") a bit stronger than usual. Nevertheless, that slight uptick in focus and brain clarity continued. Went to work venturing these brutal winter conditions. Had two capsules with breakfast, two with lunch. I had a very productive morning, despite dealing with quite a stressful day. I started to feel maybe there's something to this!

But then... half way through the afternoon I started to feel like I was crashing. Went home, and felt increasingly off. This evening I feel fairly fatigued, with very thick brain fog, a headache, feverish feeling, odd muscle soreness, and cervical pain.

Not sure if these things are related to the supplement, or maybe it's the brutal winter temperatures getting to me. I may be getting a major cold, so I don't want to make any judgements yet. I will continue taking this for a few days, to see if I can draw any correlations. If I feel that the crashing feeling persists, I will stop it.
 
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Antares in NYC

Senior Member
Messages
582
Location
USA
By the way, over the years I have tried just about every supplement suggested to reduce that awful brain fog. Nothing has helped or made a significant difference to this day. Brain fog, memory impairments and mental fatigue remain as the most acute and relentless of my ME/CFS symptoms.
 

MeSci

ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?
Messages
8,231
Location
Cornwall, UK
I am not aware of any studies showing a link between Gram positive bacteria and leaky gut.

This paper may not represent strong evidence, and it talks about sub-groups, but does posit links between ME/CFS, leaky gut and some gram-positive bacteria.
 

maryb

iherb code TAK122
Messages
3,602
Location
UK
@MeSci
Well thanks so much for that link - a recent MAPS test with Genova showed I had strep and e-coli. Medical history of boils and sore throats during my life pointed to strep infection.
I've been advised to start Paradex??? can't remember - been too ill to get on to it. But as the discussion says alkalising acids would help so that's why people taking bicarb etc. between meals feel better. I just tried a a/biotic for my recent fluey sore throat thing - it crashed me - too many toxins. so that's not an option for me.
Anyone else have a herbal remedy for gram positive bacteria - think I've asked already?
Seems both Doctors Chia and Merleir are in the right place. (Merleir also co-wrote this paper)

Here's the discussion for those not well enough to skim the paper.

'Indigenous bowel microflora can have both positive and

negative impacts on health. The balance of this ecosystem is

dynamic and alteration of intestinal bacteria may alter the

nutritional benefits to the host. Results in this study elucidate

a direct relationship between CFS patients with cognitive

dysfunction and marked alteration of the bowel microbial

flora where the dominance of the organism E. coli was
replaced by the Gram positive homofermentative lactic acid

bacteria, Enterococcus and Streptococcus spp. This
relationship demonstrates the need for measuring D- and Llactic

acid accumulation in biofluids of CFS patients

compared to healthy individuals to confirm whether D-lactic

acid may be involved in the pathogenesis of CFS.

The cause for the increased colonization of faecal

enterococcus and streptococcus in patients with CFS remains

unclear. A recent report of persistent enterovirus infection in

the intestinal tract of CFS patients suggests the possibility of

a chronic disseminated enteroviral infection disrupting the

local immunity (38). Microbial translocation is also a cause

of systemic immune activation in HIV infected individuals

(39). Based on the findings described in this study, existing

therapeutic tools such as short courses of an appropriate

antibiotic, alkalinizing agents, a low carbohydrate diet and

the restriction of glucose intake could become part of the

therapy of CFS patients who suffer from D-lactic acidosis
 

Elph68

Senior Member
Messages
598
I am not aware of any studies showing a link between Gram positive bacteria and leaky gut.

Hi Hip,

How much information do you need ... I have uploaded some information from the Melbourne University.

There are 2 methods of causing leaky gut by gram positive bacteria. The first being gut fermentation, gram positive bacteria ferment sugars/starches etc. and produce lactic acid and hydrogen sulphide. Hydrogen Sulphide (a poison) causes epithelial cells to break their bonds, resulting in leaky gut, acidosis causes brain fog etc. The second method (and this is the killer) once you have fixed acidosis from the fermenting gut they change their method of metabolism, to oxidative and produce hydrogen peroxide which causes oxidative stress on the colon walls which breaks down DNA at the cellular level, and completely lysis the cells .... you still have leaky gut, but what is worse, this process causes colonic polyps which leads to cancer ........

You may like to review the undetectable infection thread.

Cheers.
 

Attachments

  • Barnes Nicholas Elphinstone Darren.pdf
    171.9 KB · Views: 19

Elph68

Senior Member
Messages
598
@MeSci
Well thanks so much for that link - a recent MAPS test with Genova showed I had strep and e-coli. Medical history of boils and sore throats during my life pointed to strep infection.
I've been advised to start Paradex??? can't remember - been too ill to get on to it. But as the discussion says alkalising acids would help so that's why people taking bicarb etc. between meals feel better. I just tried a a/biotic for my recent fluey sore throat thing - it crashed me - too many toxins. so that's not an option for me.
Anyone else have a herbal remedy for gram positive bacteria - think I've asked already?
Seems both Doctors Chia and Merleir are in the right place. (Merleir also co-wrote this paper)

Here's the discussion for those not well enough to skim the paper.

'Indigenous bowel microflora can have both positive and

negative impacts on health. The balance of this ecosystem is

dynamic and alteration of intestinal bacteria may alter the

nutritional benefits to the host. Results in this study elucidate

a direct relationship between CFS patients with cognitive

dysfunction and marked alteration of the bowel microbial

flora where the dominance of the organism E. coli was
replaced by the Gram positive homofermentative lactic acid

bacteria, Enterococcus and Streptococcus spp. This
relationship demonstrates the need for measuring D- and Llactic

acid accumulation in biofluids of CFS patients

compared to healthy individuals to confirm whether D-lactic

acid may be involved in the pathogenesis of CFS.

The cause for the increased colonization of faecal

enterococcus and streptococcus in patients with CFS remains

unclear. A recent report of persistent enterovirus infection in

the intestinal tract of CFS patients suggests the possibility of

a chronic disseminated enteroviral infection disrupting the

local immunity (38). Microbial translocation is also a cause

of systemic immune activation in HIV infected individuals

(39). Based on the findings described in this study, existing

therapeutic tools such as short courses of an appropriate

antibiotic, alkalinizing agents, a low carbohydrate diet and

the restriction of glucose intake could become part of the

therapy of CFS patients who suffer from D-lactic acidosis

Hi Maryb,

The only problem with this theory .... it doesn't explain the auto-immune issues fully .... Once the strep have access to the underlying cells (through the leaky gut), they have access to the lymphatic system where they take up residence and start killing the immune system from within ......

That is why the protocol that you have presented will generally only return a 75% recovery at best. (That is their data)...... But they are heading in the right direction .....

Cheers.
 

maryb

iherb code TAK122
Messages
3,602
Location
UK
So if as they say in @Elph68 link

'If indicated, erythromycin may assist in the suppression of the faecal Streptococcus spp.
Ampicillin/amoxycillin may be a suitable alternative if patient is reported to have adverse reactions to the
macrolids'

what happens after we take these a/biotics - how do we stop the bacteria from getting hold again?.
 

MeSci

ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?
Messages
8,231
Location
Cornwall, UK
@MeSci
Well thanks so much for that link - a recent MAPS test with Genova showed I had strep and e-coli. Medical history of boils and sore throats during my life pointed to strep infection.
I've been advised to start Paradex??? can't remember - been too ill to get on to it. But as the discussion says alkalising acids would help so that's why people taking bicarb etc. between meals feel better. I just tried a a/biotic for my recent fluey sore throat thing - it crashed me - too many toxins. so that's not an option for me.
Anyone else have a herbal remedy for gram positive bacteria - think I've asked already?
Seems both Doctors Chia and Merleir are in the right place. (Merleir also co-wrote this paper)

Here's the discussion for those not well enough to skim the paper.

'Indigenous bowel microflora can have both positive and

negative impacts on health. The balance of this ecosystem is

dynamic and alteration of intestinal bacteria may alter the

nutritional benefits to the host. Results in this study elucidate

a direct relationship between CFS patients with cognitive

dysfunction and marked alteration of the bowel microbial

flora where the dominance of the organism E. coli was
replaced by the Gram positive homofermentative lactic acid

bacteria, Enterococcus and Streptococcus spp. This
relationship demonstrates the need for measuring D- and Llactic

acid accumulation in biofluids of CFS patients

compared to healthy individuals to confirm whether D-lactic

acid may be involved in the pathogenesis of CFS.

The cause for the increased colonization of faecal

enterococcus and streptococcus in patients with CFS remains

unclear. A recent report of persistent enterovirus infection in

the intestinal tract of CFS patients suggests the possibility of

a chronic disseminated enteroviral infection disrupting the

local immunity (38). Microbial translocation is also a cause

of systemic immune activation in HIV infected individuals

(39). Based on the findings described in this study, existing

therapeutic tools such as short courses of an appropriate

antibiotic, alkalinizing agents, a low carbohydrate diet and

the restriction of glucose intake could become part of the

therapy of CFS patients who suffer from D-lactic acidosis

NB theories vary as to whether gram-negative or gram-positive bacteria are the main culprits. This paper by Maes and Leunis posits gram-positive causation and purports to show dramatic benefits from a leaky-gut diet.

EDIT - I meant gram-negative! :oops:

I couldn't find any info on natural gram-specific antibiotics so I use short courses of grapefruit seed extract, purported to be active against both gram-negative and positive bacteria, plus a leaky-gut diet and supplements, my theory being that a general bacterial reduction plus the right diet will enable the gut to find a healthier floral balance.
 
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MeSci

ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?
Messages
8,231
Location
Cornwall, UK
Hi Maryb,

The only problem with this theory .... it doesn't explain the auto-immune issues fully .... Once the strep have access to the underlying cells (through the leaky gut), they have access to the lymphatic system where they take up residence and start killing the immune system from within ......

That is why the protocol that you have presented will generally only return a 75% recovery at best. (That is their data)...... But they are heading in the right direction .....

Cheers.

That is only one theory. There are others, and this paper provides a good (if technical) explanation of an apparently-popular one. It uses the autoimmune examples of coeliac disease and diabetes, but I see no reason why it should not apply to other autoimmune diseases. It says:

This new theory implies that once the autoimmune process is activated, it is not auto-perpetuating, but rather can be modulated or even reversed by preventing the continuous interplay between genes and environment. Since TJ dysfunction allows this interaction, new therapeutic strategies aimed at re-establishing the intestinal barrier function offer innovative, unexplored approaches for the treatment of these devastating diseases.

Thus they, along with others such as Maes, believe that just fixing leaky gut may be enough to turn off autoimmune activity. It could take months or years, depending on a range of factors.