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Has anyone been completely cured of CFS?

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47
I find it funny how the people calling it incurable are the people who haven't been cured. Those are the people that are defending the definition of this as incurable. And it is no surprise they aren't cured- because for one they don't even believe there is a cure. lol

When you look at all of the things that can go wrong and cause a set of symptoms like hormones, genes, metabolism, nutrition, drug interactions, physical injuries, mental disorders, chemical toxin poisoning - all of which can produce chronic fatigue - it should give a bigger perspective or understanding for the idea that CFS does not have one cause...

And whoever says it has one cause doesn't understand the body.

your doctor will say it's incurable because he/she doesn't know how to deal with the illness!

I agree with the things you have listed, except the metabolism/nutrition - and you left out stress
 
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Snow Leopard

Hibernating
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5,902
Location
South Australia
it is common knowledge that stress lowers the body's immune system

No.

It is a common myth. The reality is far more complicated.

Also, what is meant by stress? Stress means many different things in many different contexts. Saying that stress lowers the immune system is not exactly wrong, it is almost meaningless.

It frustrates me that "Stress" is so often bandied about in a "god of the gaps" type of way. Don't understand it? Blame it on stress.

The reality is that many of the things that people claim are explained by stress, are not in fact explained at all by such mechanisms. I've tried looking quite deeply at the scientific literature in the past and I've always been left wanting.
 
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Messages
47
No.

It is a common myth. The reality is far more complicated.

Also, what is meant by stress? Stress means many different things in many different contexts. Saying that stress lowers the immune system is not exactly wrong, it is almost meaningless.

sorry but you are wrong. It has been proven to be the case scientifically. If you don't believe it, I can't help you!

The issue seems to be that you are confused or don't understand what constitutes stress - that's a different matter
 

MeSci

ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?
Messages
8,231
Location
Cornwall, UK
No.

It is a common myth. The reality is far more complicated.

Also, what is meant by stress? Stress means many different things in many different contexts. Saying that stress lowers the immune system is not exactly wrong, it is almost meaningless.

It frustrates me that "Stress" is so often bandied about in a "god of the gaps" type of way. Don't understand it? Blame it on stress.

The reality is that many of the things that people claim are explained by stress, are not in fact explained at all by such mechanisms. I've tried looking quite deeply at the scientific literature in the past and I've always been left wanting.

This study looks interesting. It's called 'Evidence for a Shift in the Th-1 to Th-2 Cytokine Response Associated With Chronic Stress and Aging'.
 
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64
sorry but you are wrong. It has been proven to be the case scientifically. If you don't believe it, I can't help you!

The issue seems to be that you are confused or don't understand what constitutes stress - that's a different matter

What studies show it?

Do you believe CFS to be due to stress, as it is being proven to be linked to different viruses with more conviction then to stress.
 

MeSci

ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?
Messages
8,231
Location
Cornwall, UK
What studies show it?

Do you believe CFS to be due to stress, as it is being proven to be linked to different viruses with more conviction then to stress.

I'm not aware of any studies that show ME/CFS to be definitely due to viruses. There are a lot of findings of the presence of certain infectious organisms (which could be opportunistic downstream factors), and a number of theories, ditto with regard to other things, e.g. leaky gut. Causes are likely to be numerous, and a different mixture of causal factors for different people.
 
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64
I'm not aware of any studies that show ME/CFS to be definitely due to viruses. There are a lot of findings of the presence of certain infectious organisms (which could be opportunistic downstream factors), and a number of theories, ditto with regard to other things, e.g. leaky gut. Causes are likely to be numerous, and a different mixture of causal factors for different people.

Exactly, so how can it be just stress as th above seems to say?

There are so many theories out there. But there have been many studies where the sufferers have a virus of some sort in their blood work.
 

SOC

Senior Member
Messages
7,849
I'm not aware of any studies that show ME/CFS to be definitely due to viruses. There are a lot of findings of the presence of certain infectious organisms (which could be opportunistic downstream factors), and a number of theories, ditto with regard to other things, e.g. leaky gut. Causes are likely to be numerous, and a different mixture of causal factors for different people.
I agree with you entirely here. We don't know of a definite cause of ME/CFS, but there are multiple possibilities. I just want to point out that @cosmo said (my bolding)
...linked to different viruses with more conviction then to stress
which I also agree with. There is more solid scientific support of the theory that ME/CFS is linked to viruses than that it is caused by stress.
 
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47
It would appear Barbican1 is of the opinion that stress is the main factor to causes of CFS.
Please read again what I said. Immunity is lowered - this applies to the population as a whole. People become vulnerable to opportunistic bacteria, viruses etc, when that happens
 

SOC

Senior Member
Messages
7,849
Please read again what I said. Immunity is lowered - this applies to the population as a whole. People become vulnerable to opportunistic bacteria, viruses etc, when that happens

Is it possible that this conversation is becoming confused and/or bogged down because of an unclear definition of the word "stress"?

There is the popular use of the word which is generally thought to mean something along the lines of "emotional overload". The medical/scientific meaning is broader, including exercise, infection, and other things that require the body to adjust.

If, @barbican1, you mean that emotional overload alone can cause ME/CFS, I think you're going to get some serious pushback here. If you're suggesting that emotional overload causes sufficient immune impairment to allow serious longterm infections to develop, your argument would benefit from references to specific scientific research studies to support it.

On the other hand, if the point is that any number of stressors -- excessive exercise, infection, etc -- can perpetuate some illnesses, we probably all agree to some extent.
 

SOC

Senior Member
Messages
7,849
you said it perpetuates. What is your reference?
No, I didn't say it does. I said we might all agree that it can to some extent. I'm not arguing in support of that position, however. I'm happy to retract entirely the statement that we might agree that stressors can perpetuate illness.
 
Messages
47
If you're suggesting that emotional overload causes sufficient immune impairment to allow serious longterm infections to develop, your argument would benefit from references to specific scientific research studies to support it.

try post #164 above and open the link
 
Messages
64
So Barbican1, do you think that CFS can be cured and if so how?

As that is the original topic of the thread, I thought it would be interesting to hear your thoughts.
 

SOC

Senior Member
Messages
7,849
try post #164 above and open the link
Interesting, but it's only one reference and is specific to spousal caregivers of people with dementia. This means the people studied are under severe long-term physical as well as emotional stress. They are also likely to be elderly themselves, which is a major confounding factor which limits the application of the results to young and healthy persons.

The conclusion itself is far from definitive,
Conclusions. The data are consistent with previous reports on acute stress and suggest that there may also be a shift from a Th-1 to a Th-2 response associated with a chronic stressor such as caregiving. This shift could have implications for an individual's responses to pathogens.
(my bolding)

Note that this does not conclude that stress definitely causes long-term immune dysfunction or persistent viral or bacterial illness.

In addition, the immune changes described in this abstract are very specific:
Neither stress nor age was significantly related to the percentage or number of IFNγ+/CD-8+, IL-2+/CD-8+ cells, or IFNγ+, IL-2+, CD-4+cells. However, the percentage of IL-10+ cells was higher in lymphocytes obtained from caregivers than control subjects.
This is not, I think, not similar to the immune dysfunctions being found in ME/CFS patients.

I, for one, don't doubt that severe, chronic physical and emotional stress, such as being the primary caregiver for a dementia patient, could have a negative affect on the immune system. That does not mean that I agree with the very broad generalization that emotional overload causes a serious long-term neuroimmune illness like ME/CFS. Maybe it's my scientific research background, but I try to be very careful about extrapolating beyond the data given.

If someone told me that they developed CCC- or ICC-defined ME/CFS after years of physical and emotional stress from caring for a dementia patient, I wouldn't argue with them. I agree that there might be sufficient immune impairment or other consequences of that kind of extreme situation that could result in ME/CFS or related illness. We simply don't know enough about it.

That's a long way, however, from concluding that ordinary life emotional stress causes ME/CFS.
 

Snow Leopard

Hibernating
Messages
5,902
Location
South Australia
This study looks interesting. It's called 'Evidence for a Shift in the Th-1 to Th-2 Cytokine Response Associated With Chronic Stress and Aging'.


Thanks for mentioning a study. The study is typical for this sort of thing. They used a singular measure at a singular point in time and it was a case-control study. Ideally you would use a prospective study and measure multiple measures of each aspect and do so at multiple points in time (for example, gene expression, levels of signalling/regulatory molecules in the organ in question, receptor affinity and expression levels). This is necessary if we really wish to understand dynamic systems like the immune system.

There are many different "stressors" and resulting immune shifts are not simple 'downregulations' or 'upregulations' and these immune shifts have not been clearly linked to increased risk of infection in a clear cause-effect way.

Nor are subjective reports of psychologically stressful events correlated with immune system shifts.

This is what I mean by the reality being much more complicated.

I'm not saying that stress cannot be some sort of associated risk factor, but it is not a clear cause-effect cause of any disease.
 

MeSci

ME/CFS since 1995; activity level 6?
Messages
8,231
Location
Cornwall, UK
Thanks for mentioning a study. The study is typical for this sort of thing. They used a singular measure at a singular point in time and it was a case-control study. Ideally you would use a prospective study and measure multiple measures of each aspect and do so at multiple points in time (for example, gene expression, levels of signalling/regulatory molecules in the organ in question, receptor affinity and expression levels). This is necessary if we really wish to understand dynamic systems like the immune system.

There are many different "stressors" and resulting immune shifts are not simple 'downregulations' or 'upregulations' and these immune shifts have not been clearly linked to increased risk of infection in a clear cause-effect way.

Nor are subjective reports of psychologically stressful events correlated with immune system shifts.

This is what I mean by the reality being much more complicated.

I'm not saying that stress cannot be some sort of associated risk factor, but it is not a clear cause-effect cause of any disease.

I think that the effects of chronic stress on the immune and stress hormone systems are likely to be broadly analogous to those of chronic overconsumption of carbohydrates in relation to Type 2 diabetes.

To much carbohydrate leads to extreme fluctuations in blood glucose.
Extreme fluctuations in blood glucose lead to excessive demands on the insulin secretion/response system.
Long-term persistence of these demands eventually leads to downregulation of insulin receptors.
Thus you have insulin resistance, and eventually diabetes.

By stress I think that most of us use it as a shorthand for emotional stress that leads to release of stress hormones. As others have said, there are other types of stressor that have similar effects.

So to use the diabetes analogy:

In chronic stress, stress hormones are chronically raised.
This may downregulate parts of the immune system.
Eventually the process may exhaust aspects of stress hormone secretion/response (consequences may include the low cortisol/abnormal cortisol secretion pattern that we tend to have).
Aspects of the immune system may then rebound, becoming over-active.
One result of this overactivity may be autoimmunity.

It may not have been conclusively proven yet, but is consistent with what we know about physiology.

I do not for a moment believe that any of this can be reversed by psychiatric intervention or exercise, and I use analogies (I love analogies! :lol:) like the impossibility of mending a bullet wound by putting the bullet back in the gun.
 
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