CONVERTING GLUTATHIONE (OXIDIZED) TO (REDUCED)

[DREBS]

I've been on this website for a year now but am just getting around to feeling like Im familiar enough to post. I'm detoxing so I can start methylating without too many side effects. My specific question is around that on converting Oxidized Glutathione back to Reduced Glutathione. Also if your not converting Oxidized back to reduced is it bad to do things to stimulate reduced glutathione eg. coffee enema and other methods, can I build up too much oxidized trying to get the reduced numbers up, kinda like trying to methylate before detoxing?

I took the Methylation pathway analysis test from seeking health, revealed low Reduced Gluta and High Oxidized. My question is what supplements could be beneficial in that conversion i know one of the vital enzymes for doing so is NADHP(which might also explain my low active folate and MTHFR mutation), Could it be as easy as taking NADH from source naturals now all it needs is a phosphorus molecule which my phosphorus is low on Hair EE and OATS.

Dr. ben lynch also suggested i take selenium, resveratrol, Vitamin E, PC, and curium, however I could find no literature supporting this. I know the CBS +/+ is implicated in the impaired glutathione production however I'm a bit A typical in that that flow to my transsulfuration pathway is low. Any knowledge or insight to this area would be greatly valued.

Anyway incase needed or curious here is my information


My mutations are as follows…(post viral fatigue since Aug 12' 24 yr. old Male)

MAO A +/+

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CBS (C699T) +/+

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SHMT +/+

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ACAT +/-

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MTHFR (C677T) +/-

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MTR (A2756G) +/_

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MTRR (A66G) +/-

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MTRR(11) +/-

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BHMT 2 +/-

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BHMT 4 +/-

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BHMT 8 +/-

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CBS (A360A) +/-


Methylation Pathway Panel


Glutathione (oxidized) 0.58 (.16-0.50)

Glutathione (reduced) 3.8 (3.8-5.5)

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SAM-E… 223 (221-256)

SAH……. 56.4 (38-49)

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5-CH3-THF …….….14.3 (8.4-72.6)

10-Formyl-THF…. 8.5 (1.5-8.2)

5-Formyl-THF…….2.0 (1.20-11.7)

THF……………………0.67(.60-6.80)

Folic Acid…………..16.6 (8.9-24.6)

Folinic Acid (WB)..10.2 (9.0-35.5)

Active Folate…… 361 (400-1500)

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Adenosine ……….26.9 (16.8-21.4)


Borderline high Methionine 3.3 (1.6-3.6) per Amino Acid Plasma

Borderline High Homocystine .41 (<.50)

However my Ammonia isn’t bad 18 (<30)

 

[helen1]

It's a good question, @DREBS. I had similar results to yours in the methylation test and I have been doing coffee enemas. I had only read that they could increase glutathione production but really could find no studies on this except one using... was it rats? If anyone knows of any human ones, I (and Drebs presumably) would love to see them.

By the way, the coffee enemas are making a huge difference in how I feel. Energy. Cheerfulness. It's amazing really. And I'm needing more extra mfolate than previously. But I would like to know what's really going on, not just theories about bile secretion and glutathione.

 

[DREBS]

Well to respond to your question I think it has everything to do with the fact that Glutathione is paramount for production and maintenance of ATP… You cannot convert methionine to SAME without ATP. So if your Glutathione is low your ATP is getting robbed and being damaged.........

Thus your conversion of Methionine to SAM-E is down regulated and the methylation cycle suffers. However it is very individualistic as with mine my SAH is high and SAM-E is low so (and I'm still wrapping my head around this) even if coffee enemas got my SAM-E up there's a block somewhere else, being that my Methionine, SAH, Adenosine, Homocystine are all elevated while SAME is low, there's got to be a block somewhere. Any way how the coffee emma can stimulate glutathione is demonstrated here… this is the best information I've found about the specififcs of biles and stimulation of Glutathione....

http://www.mygutsy.com/the-ultimate-liver-detox-coffee-enemas/

 

[Critterina]

I'm wondering...If your Me and Hcy are both elevated, it seems like the exit from the methyl cycle is blocked. Glutathione is one part, tetrahydrobiopterin is one part, vitamin B6 is one part, and any part that's deficient can slow down the exit. The CBS +/+ is a slight increase in activity (despite what Yasko/Heartfixer publish), so I'm guessing one of those other parts is not there doing it's job. Your oxidized glutathione is out of range, but not skyrocketing. I'd be interested in your amino acid profile to see if it also suggests B6 deficiency. (I recommend P5P as some people have trouble activating P5P, and it may be that lack of ability to convert that's causing the deficiency in the first place.)

Just my 2 cents.

 

[DREBS]

I'm wondering...If your Me and Hcy are both elevated, it seems like the exit from the methyl cycle is blocked. Glutathione is one part, tetrahydrobiopterin is one part, vitamin B6 is one part, and any part that's deficient can slow down the exit. The CBS +/+ is a slight increase in activity (despite what Yasko/Heartfixer publish), so I'm guessing one of those other parts is not there doing it's job. Your oxidized glutathione is out of range, but not skyrocketing. I'd be interested in your amino acid profile to see if it also suggests B6 deficiency. (I recommend P5P as some people have trouble activating P5P, and it may be that lack of ability to convert that's causing the deficiency in the first place.)

Just my 2 cents.

Well my OAT'S showed low b6 just hugging the lowest edge of normal. But it showed a few other very interesting things that my functional medicine practitioner said she had never seen in over 300 of these test. One was a Vitamin C level of 0, I started taking Lyposerphic Vitamin c and felt better the other was a NAC level of 0.

However, it is very interesting that you mentioned tetrahydrobiopterin as I've never heard of it and from what I just brushed up on about it, it is implemented as an important cofactor to tryptophan hydroxylase which converts l-tryptophan to 5-htp. My amino acid test showed normal tryptophan but very low 5-HIAA on the oats test which mean my serotonin is low and I've had 3 other tests all say that. When I spoke to Dr. Gant on the phone he also suggested this and to take 5-htp, however it makes me extremely stimulated for days at doses of 50 mg so I'm not breaking it down right. This, along with low Dopamine.

tetrahydrobiopterin is also said to be implicated in the conversion of l-arginine to Nitric oxide which mine has been tested and is extremely low (dr. said its what he sees in people 60+) and I'm 24... thus leading to my always freezing hands and cold feet (ever since the virus that bought about all these symptoms) so thank you for bring that it does fit.

As far as P-5-P goes i was fascinated to read a post by rich that states you have to have b2 to use P-5-P in the body. And phosphoruses implication in the process which OAT'S shoed my phosphorus to be very low as well....QUOTE FROM RICH POST ....
"P5P by itself will not put P5P into the cells, because the phosphate is removed from it in the gut, and then the liver puts the phosphate back on, if it has enough B2. Then it goes into the blood, and the phosphate is removed again before it enters the cells. Then, if the cells have enough B2, they put the phosphate back on again, so that there is P5P inside the cells, and then it can serve as a coenzyme."-RICH

My problem now is I know more information than I can sort in my head and am currently trying to decide where to start and how to approach my methylation issues what forms of supplements to use, which ones to use ect. while I detox.

Anyways thanks for your time and post I hope all this information will help someone else just as much as it has me.

 

[Critterina]

Oh, that's interesting. I was taking B6 and tested deficient, so I took the same amount of P5P. After months of being on P5P, my NutraEval showed low B2. I wonder if I was using it all up.

Just FYI, there are some practitioners who warn against supplementing with tetrahydrobiopterin (BH4) before everything else gets all set up. I'm not sure I agree. Although it is expensive and labeled 'homeopathic' so I'm not sure what's really in it, I bought some and took it, and didn't have any noticeable effects. Same warning about taking glutathione. I haven't tried that. But I do know two people (one with Hashimoto's) who use it to good effect without other methylation support. They are neither ME/CFS though.

I find that supplementing with methylfolate really seems to help my mood (being MTHFR A1298C, I'm forcing the back reaction), so I think I'm helping create the BH4. It does drain my tryptophan, though, so I'm up to 1.5g/day. But tryptophan is cheap. 5-HTP is expensive. I'm wondering if by taking the methylfolate/ tryptophan instead of the 5-HTP, my body regulates the conversion so it doesn't affect my sleep so much. Of course, taking the methylfolate before breakfast and the tryptophan before bed may help.

I too have NO3 issues and freezing hands and feet usually. Something in my protocol seems to be helping that, though. I do use NADH and the whole Heartfixer "Energy will falter" protocol (ribose, carnitine, co-Q10 etc), and I seem to relate that to less cold intolerance, but I can't say if it's the combo or one thing or another.

So, I got into this whole methylation and supplement thing without knowing that some say you should detox first. I can't say I have been any the worst for it. I hope you can finish your detox soon and get to methylfolate (and maybe MB12). I think you'll start feeling better soon. Hope so!

 

[DREBS]

Oh, that's interesting. I was taking B6 and tested deficient, so I took the same amount of P5P. After months of being on P5P, my NutraEval showed low B2. I wonder if I was using it all up.

Just FYI, there are some practitioners who warn against supplementing with tetrahydrobiopterin (BH4) before everything else gets all set up. I'm not sure I agree. Although it is expensive and labeled 'homeopathic' so I'm not sure what's really in it, I bought some and took it, and didn't have any noticeable effects. Same warning about taking glutathione. I haven't tried that. But I do know two people (one with Hashimoto's) who use it to good effect without other methylation support. They are neither ME/CFS though.

I find that supplementing with methylfolate really seems to help my mood (being MTHFR A1298C, I'm forcing the back reaction), so I think I'm helping create the BH4. It does drain my tryptophan, though, so I'm up to 1.5g/day. But tryptophan is cheap. 5-HTP is expensive. I'm wondering if by taking the methylfolate/ tryptophan instead of the 5-HTP, my body regulates the conversion so it doesn't affect my sleep so much. Of course, taking the methylfolate before breakfast and the tryptophan before bed may help.

I too have NO3 issues and freezing hands and feet usually. Something in my protocol seems to be helping that, though. I do use NADH and the whole Heartfixer "Energy will falter" protocol (ribose, carnitine, co-Q10 etc), and I seem to relate that to less cold intolerance, but I can't say if it's the combo or one thing or another.

So, I got into this whole methylation and supplement thing without knowing that some say you should detox first. I can't say I have been any the worst for it. I hope you can finish your detox soon and get to methylfolate (and maybe MB12). I think you'll start feeling better soon. Hope so!

You said something that had been getting a lot of attention from me lately and that's NADH(p). It is the enzyme needed to convert oxidized glutathione back into reduced (the useable form) it is also needed in the synthesis of NO, also used to convert folic acid to active folate. I have a hunch and an intuition that NADH is going to be very good for me. I also have had great results with actyl-l-cariniate, D-ribose, co-q-10, as well as NAC, TMG, alpha lipic acid, methylfolate.

However I had to stop all this on the subject of glutathione in June I took reduced glutathione for the first time in 200 mg. The next morning i woke up with chest pain ended up heart ICU for 3 days with myocarditis of the heart. I was so toxic that after taking the glutathione my body essentially said hey glutathione showed up release the toxins and it was to much for my body, all my toxins dumped. That was my theory and I later found studies and evidence to support this.

So I got off everything for awhile because my cardiologist freaked out when I told him what all I was taking. Of course having no idea what these things where he ignorantly said these were probably the cause of it, and scared me off them. Now that I've tried to start back up it get all kinds of symptoms and sensitivities. UEE have since shown I need to detox but why I wasn't affecting me before I can't say.

This will not be the case with everyone methylation is very individualistic and very similar in other respects just as long as you take it slow and work your way up and listen to your body.

Are you CBS +/+ ? If not that would help with you not having to detox although there are other mutations implicated in the detox phase as well as the detox panel genetic genie does with 23 & me that I just found out about cause apparently I've been under a rock keeping myself occupied with studying methylation.

 

[Critterina]

I'm CBS +/-. You are aware of the misreading of the research by Yasko, perpetuated by Heartfixer (and some people who I respect on this site, but disagree with on this issue), aren't you? The CBS mutation is a slight increase if enzyme activity, not a block to detox, but a more efficient conversion. To get the block, you need to chop off a good part of the enzyme, something that doesn't happen outside a lab.

So sorry to hear about your experience with glutathione. My friend takes S-acetyl glutathione. I don't know if that's oxidized or reduced. Do you? I had a similar response from a gastroenterologist - take a little vitamin C and forget all these other things. Right. (sarcasm here.)

I mention this all the time, but NAC is a troublemaker for me. TMG is good for BHMT 08 mutation; it increases recycling of Hcy to Me, and you're high in both, so I'm not sure it will help you, being +/- for that mutation. For me, the jury is still out on alpha lipoic acid. That was prescribed for me, but I do have amalgams...but low mercury test (they didn't test methyl mercury.)

I agree with you (and disagree with Freddd) that there is a lot of individualism in our responses. I think that this being an ME/CFS site probably narrows the field in the types of people/responses here. But then there are people like me, who have got GREAT insight from the people here into my own problems (HI and secondary AI) without having ME/CFS.

 

[caledonia]

@DREBS Rich Vank has an interpretation of the Methylation Pathways Panel - see my links.

I don't understand detoxing metals before doing methylation. Your detox pathways aren't going to be working well until you get them fixed via methylation, and methylation causes detox anyway. You just have to keep the methylation at a level low enough that's it's not making you worse.

Some people do ok with glutathione supplementation and some don't. And yes you do need NAD with it to make sure it gets converted to the good reduced glutathione. See Ben Lynch's video Clinical Breakthroughs 2013 linked in my signature for how that works. Also too much glutathione causes feedback inhibition (per Ben Lynch).

 

[UM MAN]

CBS++...Have you measured your urine sulfate level???? Have you tested your Molybdenum level???

 

[DREBS]

CBS++...Have you measured your urine sulfate level???? Have you tested your Molybdenum level???

Just did, I was wrong about my transsulfuate flow, it's high … the amy yasko sulfate test was at the highest reference level on sulfate strips it read's >1600…. Molybdenum is slightly elevated but still inside normal limits on both hair and urine test

 

[renski]

I don't do well on glutathione or NAC, am trying NAD (Thorne Niacel), hopefully to make more reduced glutathione. My glutathione levels are shot on the OATS test.