What has helped more with your sleep?

[MeSci]

oh, I can tell you what doesn't work, but you already know (sleep hygiene, melathonine, whale sounds, no screens to look at, segmented sleep theory, medicines, age, taking cortisol at night)

You've just reminded me - before my leaky-gut diet made it unnecessary, I found that a recording of the sound of breaking waves helped me sleep.

I've had trouble sleeping all my life (I am 60) but since changing my diet it is so much better. I can sometimes be one of those annoying, smug people who can fall asleep in 5 minutes!

Ten minutes is not at all unusual for me now, but it used to be at least half an hour and often much longer, and the quality was crap too. Now this is rare.

 

[MeSci]

There was a newspaper article link going around facebook a few months ago, about people before electricity getting 'split sleep.' It was common enough that it was referred to in literature of the time as a normal option. They would sleep 4-ish hours, naturally wake up, get up or read in bed or whatever, and then go back to sleep sometime later.

Hope they didn't read in bed by candle-light and then fall asleep again...

 

[MeSci]

@WoolPipi Is great to have you with me with so much experience and determination (but I am sad you had to endure this for so long). Do you use progesterone? I am defficient according to tests of boths allopaths and alternative physicians. If I use that will I get more feminine or something? lol Basically all my good hormones are low. DHEA is the precursor of progesterone, I also have it like a granny. I wonder if taking DHEA could help sleep? Hmm I don´t want it converted to estrogen which I already have high.

This paper gives some info about progesterone and men (and women too). Looks interesting, referring also to interleukins, which seem to be abnormal in ME/CFS.

 

[MeSci]

@
Keep away from soy products and plastics though, these are sources of estrogens.

I would certainly avoid plastics where possible, but I think that plant oestrogens/phytoestrogens can actually reduce oestrogenic activity as they can bind to the same receptors (thus preventing endogenous oestrogens from binding) but can have a less-powerful oestrogenic effect.

 

[Sing]

@belize44 and others might want to look back at a big discussion we had in a thread called The HORRORS of Klonopin Addiction . Type it in the search field and make sure to use the caps. It has all the plusses and minuses, including the ME/CFS expert Dr. Paul Cheney's view which is that it is one of the most useful drugs for our condition. A long article by him is included in Post 18, and you can find it elsewhere on the web--ProHealth.

 

[IreneF]

My sleep has gotten better lately. I'm not sure why. I'm taking low-dose melatonin and avoiding electronic devices before I go to bed. No computer, iPad, games on the phone, etc. Just regular room lights.

 

[Sing]

IreneF, thanks for reminding me. Time to get off the computer!

 

[Beyond]

My supplement combo is still working. Getting to sleep in less than an hour and having dreams every night.

If we could live in a more natural way (no artificial lights and electronics at night/evening) that would benefit a lot our circadian rhythm. If I lived alone that´s what I would do, use candles or something. Eventually you would feel like going to sleep very early, which is the Holy Grail for adrenal fatigue,

 

[seaflower]

May I ask what you take aspirin for? AFAIK it has no sedating properties. I haven't heard of bread protecting the stomach either, and many people with ME find that reducing the intake of grains improves their health, including me, and that includes my sleep. Cutting out gluten and reducing grains and sugar is thought to improve gut health, which in turn can reduce the autoimmune activity which may cause ME.

The aspirin puts me back to sleep and I don't know why but I read one time that lots of people may have slight aches and pains that they are not quite aware of but yet it keeps them from sleeping. I do feel achy when I wake up in the night so I tried it and it often works. You can't take aspirin on an empty stomach so I eat something.

 

[seaflower]

Last time I posted here I took 600 mg NAC and fell asleep fast, along with the usual clonopin. I also slept longer and felt more relaxed, although a little bit tired, the next day. I think I took another 600 mg dose the next night, then read in here about someone taking double.

So I took double. Again, I slept pretty well along with klonopin but was a little tired during the day. Then at 9 pm I suddenly had to lie down on the couch and I slept for three solid hours. Went to bed at some point and slept 9 hours and then three more hours!!!! It's like 15 hours of sleep. I feel drugged and tired and have a sinus headache.

I won't take that much NAC again but one thing: I had dreams!!!! I do hope this wears off, I can't just keep sleeping.
I did take 1/4 mg of clonopin quite a few hours ago just because I usually take 1 mg at bedtime and hadn't taken any at all. I'm messed up but this proves to me that NAC will make me sleep. I just wonder what other amino acids I am lacking.

 

[Beyond]

It was me seaflower, I have been taking 1200 mgs of NAC at night along with the other stuff. I have find that sleeping is easier but also I feel odd during the day. Detox? I will take 600 mgs this night. Valentijn uses a timed release NAC that helps her sleep, that might not have the side effects of the next day for us.

 

[Valentijn]

It was me seaflower, I have been taking 1200 mgs of NAC at night along with the other stuff. I have find that sleeping is easier but also I feel odd during the day. Detox? I will take 600 mgs this night. Valentijn uses a timed release NAC that helps her sleep, that might not have the side effects of the next day for us.

@seaflower - As Beyond says, I take Jarrows NAC Sustain, which is 600mg but slow release. NAC gets metabolized pretty quickly, so will wear off fast if taking the regular stuff. But the NAC Sustain gets me through the night, barring other issues (pain, needing to pee, etc). It doesn't make me feel odd during the day, and I often take in the morning and early afternoon as well, to avoid my brain getting jittery.

It does last longer than the regular NAC, and I've never felt a need to take a bigger dose to sleep.

 

[Allyson]

I was posting helpful inof and saving the draft a I went but still lost the lot - I give up


!!!!!

 

[Allyson]

but yes off the laptop buy 6pm really helps

and IM B12 1mg weekly

Ally

 

[seaflower]

@seaflower - As Beyond says, I take Jarrows NAC Sustain, which is 600mg but slow release. NAC gets metabolized pretty quickly, so will wear off fast if taking the regular stuff. But the NAC Sustain gets me through the night, barring other issues (pain, needing to pee, etc). It doesn't make me feel odd during the day, and I often take in the morning and early afternoon as well, to avoid my brain getting jittery.

It does last longer than the regular NAC, and I've never felt a need to take a bigger dose to sleep.

Thanks so much for the helpful replies. NAC is an amino acid, isn't it? Funny because the other aa that helped me sleep (a little tiny bit) was L-Glycine AND it got rid of my fibro completely in three nights. It has NOT worn off and I am still free of fibro.

So some wear off and some don't? I've never had to take any more of the Glycine since those three days and it's been months but the NAC wears off? It's bed time now and I shall see if I fall asleep with a teeny bit of the usual 1 mg clonopin or not. If not, I might take 600 mg of NAC and maybe not sleep all day tomorrow. 1200 mg was too much for me apparently. We are all so different. I still haven't tried 5HTP. It's all an experiment, as usual.

 

[Valentijn]

Thanks so much for the helpful replies. NAC is an amino acid, isn't it? Funny because the other aa that helped me sleep (a little tiny bit) was L-Glycine AND it got rid of my fibro completely in three nights. It has NOT worn off and I am still free of fibro.

Actually that would've been my next suggestion, if sustained release NAC doesn't help. NAC probably works because it helps to reduce glutamate levels, which is an excitatory neurotransmitter. Glycine, NAC, and glutamate all combine to form glutathione. A lot of people are just low in NAC, but some need more glycine as well.

So some wear off and some don't? I've never had to take any more of the Glycine since those three days and it's been months but the NAC wears off? It's bed time now and I shall see if I fall asleep with a teeny bit of the usual 1 mg clonopin or not. If not, I might take 600 mg of NAC and maybe not sleep all day tomorrow. 1200 mg was too much for me apparently. We are all so different. I still haven't tried 5HTP. It's all an experiment, as usual.

NAC has a half life of 5-6 hours, so levels are getting pretty low long before you want to wake up, and it would require taking a lot of doses during the day if you wanted it to be having a consistent effect. Hence the demand for a sustained release (bi-layer) version, which takes longer to get absorbed in the gut. But it's still needed on a daily (or nightly) basis, to have an effect.

 

[WoolPippi]

Eventually you would feel like going to sleep very early, which is the Holy Grail for adrenal fatigue,

both are true but I can't get them combined I tried it for a while, having very few artificial lights around. In winter I did get sleepy around 8 in the evening. Fell asleep fast too (I usually do, sorry I know you don't)
Guess who lay awake from 1 to 3...

I came by to let you know where my thinking stands.
I'm thinking our particular sleep pattern has to do with the parasympathetic nervous system. Our bodies cannot sustain homeostasis after five hours of sleep for some reason. A cortisol response is initiated.

To find out the reason I'm approaching it from two sides:

1. what happens in those 5 hours? Is there a reason for the body to panic? I know we probably get two Deep Sleep cycles by then but why do we rise all the way to waking and not stay in slumber? Body temp? Breathing? Anything to do with the parasymp. nerv. system. I'm looking into.
2. what does the cortisol peak do that 'solves' the problem the body perceived? There may be a clue there in what it tries to solve. I know it acidifies stomach acid (but I ruled that out), it promotes intestine motility (but I ruled that out), it raises blood pressure (I doubt it since we're lying flat but haven't ruled it out yet), et cetera.

Another approach is stopping the reaction, without taking away the cause. The sleeping pills and relaxing supplements mentioned by others do this. This is an end solution, but it works. Antihistamines work because they keep the hormone receptors in the cell occupied, so the body may give the command to make cortisol but it never reaches the adrenal cells that have to make it. The problem with receptors is that if the body doesn't get a response it makes more receptors or changes them. That explains upping doses and rotating meds. And varying experiences with hormone treatment.

I'm also thinking on two scales far apart from each other: I think you and I share a DNA mutation that causes our bodies to scramble homeostasis after 5 hours of deep sleep. Finding this mutation is a needle in a haystack... but if we do we can circumvent it, I am certain.
The other end: it's the hypothalamus that perceives the threat and gives the order to produce cortisol. The big orchestra conductor in the brain. The hypothalamus can be reached and taught, somewhat. I also think the hypothalamus is our subconscious. Or its quirky brother anyway.

Talking about bros: my brother has this extreme sleeping pattern also but he is healthy (at 36 yo). He uses his time at night to work on his movie stuff. And he makes sure any job he has doesn't start early in the morning, he HAS to sleep in until 8 or 9. This might give us hope?
untill later, Anna

PS what I understand is that dr Cheney uses Clonopin to reduce the exited brain chemistry. He also mentioned Valerian and Magnesium which do the same. Valentijn mentions a less jittered brain during the day with slow release NAC. I monitor my food because my brain chem. is ridiculously sensitive.

Pair these brain chemistry approaches with hypothalamus, cell processes that deplete certain stuffs (amino acids, hormones, vit) and an inborn thing for sub optimal processes (dna mutation) and I have another working theory about sleep to research. One that echoos the experiences everybody here brings to the thread. (!)

 

[WoolPippi]

This paper gives some info about progesterone and men (and women too). Looks interesting, referring also to interleukins, which seem to be abnormal in ME/CFS.

Interesting paper. It strongly links progestins to inflammation.
Progestins are what's in anti-conception pills and in traditional Hormone Replacement Therapy. They resemble human hormones but are not quite the same (because one cannot patent nature).

I'm a big advocate of Progesterone, the exact same hormone the human body makes. This has no inflammatory capacities. Bio-identical hormones.
I can however conceive that men with high inflammation have higher progesterone because they are busy making it into cortisol (to dampen the inflammation). For this same reason they will probably have high cholesterol too, busy making it into DHEA, progesterone and then cortisol.
Either way: strong stuff, hormones.

I take cortisol and it really feels like putting rocket fuel into a diesel, I have to be so careful. The progesterone I take is much easier and such a relief, my body literally sighs from relief. Still I keep it on the lower side of sufficient.

heehee, when I was tested for progesterone the lab said: "you have sufficient levels." Turns out they keep a range of correct levels that includes men. I did ok for a man. For a woman on day 21 I was about 600% short!

 

[Allyson]

I tried

Thanks so much for the helpful replies. NAC is an amino acid, isn't it? Funny because the other aa that helped me sleep (a little tiny bit) was L-Glycine AND it got rid of my fibro completely in three nights. It has NOT worn off and I am still free of fibro.

So some wear off and some don't? I've never had to take any more of the Glycine since those three days and it's been months but the NAC wears off? It's bed time now and I shall see if I fall asleep with a teeny bit of the usual 1 mg clonopin or not. If not, I might take 600 mg of NAC and maybe not sleep all day tomorrow. 1200 mg was too much for me apparently. We are all so different. I still haven't tried 5HTP. It's all an experiment, as usual.

I tried 5 htp n notice no effect at all alas

Using a go light blu in the mornings is very helpful though

IM b 12 is the best though for deeper sleep IMO




Ally

 

[maddietod]

Thanks so much for the helpful replies. NAC is an amino acid, isn't it? Funny because the other aa that helped me sleep (a little tiny bit) was L-Glycine AND it got rid of my fibro completely in three nights. It has NOT worn off and I am still free of fibro.

So some wear off and some don't? I've never had to take any more of the Glycine since those three days and it's been months but the NAC wears off? It's bed time now and I shall see if I fall asleep with a teeny bit of the usual 1 mg clonopin or not. If not, I might take 600 mg of NAC and maybe not sleep all day tomorrow. 1200 mg was too much for me apparently. We are all so different. I still haven't tried 5HTP. It's all an experiment, as usual.

How much of the glycine did you take each night? I see that the normal dose is 1/2 tsp, or 2 grams.