What has helped more with your sleep?

[heapsreal]

@heapsreal, yeah, that stupid nail.. it's slippery and invisible too. Makes no sense and drives me nuts.

@Beyond, no Progesterone won't make you feminine. It's the first hormone after DHEA and your adrenals are making it. Or are supposed to make it. They use it for all the other adrenal hormones: cortisol, aldosterone, testosterone and yes estrogens (but your body won't favour those I'd guess. Mine doesn't anyway and I'm a gurrl).
Keep away from soy products and plastics though, these are sources of estrogens.

I supplement 5 mg of hydrocortisone in the morning, wait 45 minutes for it to get converted to cortisol by my liver, then I get out of bed. My eyes've grown square from reading on my iPad while waiting for it to kick in...

@madietodd, yes, that's called segmented sleep. It was very common in old times (Paleo till Victorian time, I guess). There are references to "first sleep" and "second sleep" indeed. And you are right that there are many different sleep patterns in the world and we should not worry about not fitting the commonly conceived pattern.

However, Beyond and I are not rested after our sleep. Nor can we alter the pattern by any means.

You are very wise for looking at the 24h total instead of 8-9 hours through the night. That seems to be the way to lessen the worry and the stress about this considerable. Which in itself promotes rest. Compliments.

I am also trying the hc in the morning and phosphatidyleserine again at night with melatonin to correct cortisol rthym. Im also trying to increase energizing neutrotransmitters with different amino's and other supps for noradrenaline(acetyl tyrosine), dopamine(dopa macuna), acetylcholine(alpha gpc). Im still cycling different sleep meds and im sleeping well but unsure if its what im doing or just going through a good sleep pattern, i am struggling to wake up though.

 

[Allyson]

aaahrhg it happened again - 10 lines of useful info typed out and the screen froze and my message was lost - no drafts are saved !!!! I am about to give up!


frustrated

 

[Allyson]

Clonazepam 0.5 mg Nothing really helped except this stuff.

I do not even need that much - bite ff the tiniest amount you can with your teeth..

if that does not work in 20 mins repeat

that usually does it - drink with warm water for best results and something to push it down like an l-tryptophan cap o an l-theanine capsule

Ally

 

[Beyond]

Yeah i need to cut down on posting, when i google something i just find my own stuff ive psoted lol.

Hahah no kidding, it happens to me too. Actually often, cuz I have some threads on forums that are rare (I am lucky to have developed chronic pelvic pain and other things). One of the most depressing things, when you google and find yourself. See that desperate guy´s thread? Wait, he is me!

I am male and I agree. Plus, from my experience in bodydbuilding forums, when you are a chronic case (which means most of hormones out of whack), playing with one or two often just stirs the mess more.

I will cure my adrenal fatigue if I am lucky and nothing else is hindering the recovery just following the typical protocol of Dr Wilson. That makes sense instead of popping hormones that my body should be producing at 22 years old.

 

[Beyond]

Hey, just wanted to update that definetely one of the things I take before sleep makes ge get to sleep in 30 minutes more less. Plus I definetely feel a lot more relaxed so is not some kind of placebo. I take 6 mgs of melatonin sublingual, 400 mgs of pharmaGABA and 1000 mgs of glutathione reduced. Yeah I decided to take a lot of everything to see if these work at all lol Bad news is that I still wake up several times per night (one after 5 hours of course) and I still wake up unrested. Anyway, I also have gotten two very detailed and entertaining dreams, I like that.

 

[MeSci]

Be it methylation, wheatgrass fermented juice, amber glasses, or an allopathic drug... what has helped you to get less insomnia, less awakenings and most importantly a better rest? ...

Gluten-free, low-grain, low-sugar diet, perhaps also supplements I started as part of this leaky-gut diet, and better pacing. Over-exertion makes my sleep worse about 2-3 days later as part of PEM.

I do still take mild sedatives for sleep, rotating them so I never take anything more than 4 days in a row without a break. I have an 8-day rotation system using paracetamol-and-codeine, one of 3 different sedating antihistamines, and melatonin.

 

[MeSci]

Hehe Tammy actually I am progesterone defficient in blood tests!

@Sparrow I believe you. Douglas is a solid brand. In my experience a LOT of brands on the supplement market seem to be very low quality or placebo, that is the only way to explain why 40% or more that I have tried just does not have an effect at all. And not just for me, my healthy smaller brother also didn´t get anything from Rhodiola Solgar for example. I took once 6 pills of the stuff just to see and nada.

How many more brands/types of melatonin did you try? I say this because I have tried a few, from liquid forms, to plain melatonin capsules to sustained-release tablets Kirkmans brand.

As you are asking @Sparrow I thought I would let you know which melatonin I use - it is this one.

I don't find it enough on its own but take it with paracetamol-and-codeine or a sedating antihistamine. I'm not 100% sure that it helps (much) but the fact that melatonin boosts cortisol seems a good reason to take it anyway!

 

[Beyond]

Anything that boosts cortisol is good MeSci... well except things like cocaine and getting punched in the face of course

 

[MeSci]

The thing to watch out for is melatonin is a potent inhibitor of cortisol production so those of you who are using it as a sleep aid at night if you are taking larger dosages it will definitely negatively affect your cortisol the next day.

I noticed that with me and stopped taking it for that reason and have been better without it. Though I do think if you take a small dosage <= 5mg it should be ok for most people.

The evidence I have come across states that melatonin increases cortisol, but maybe not in everyone, e.g. see here. Where did you hear that it decreases it?

 

[MeSci]

Anything that boosts cortisol is good MeSci... well except things like cocaine and getting punched in the face of course

Yes - I am not keen on either of the latter!

 

[MeSci]

I think that depends on when you take the melatonin, and how much one takes. I try to take it about 45 minutes before going to bed, so that I'm totally ready to sleep by the time it kicks in.

I take it about 4 hours before bedtime! Several meds take a long time to start working in me. Sedating antihistamines do as well, but codeine makes me sleepy within half to one hour.

 

[MeSci]

After using so many different sleeping medications and aids, etc I found that in the end they make things worse. They are just a quick fix. I stopped them all a while ago.

I know that a lot of people might disagree with what I say here, but I found that if you try to push yourself (just a little) to stay somewhat active the entire day and resist the urge to take naps then my sleep at night became a million times better, deeper and for more continuous hours without waking. I would also wake up not feeling so terrible.

When I just didn't do much at all and rested and napped one or two times a day I found that this makes for terrible and fragmented sleep at night and waking up exhausted.

Now I don't mean to push yourself until you crash, just try to go the entire day doing things and staying a bit active and not napping. Then by night time you are more tired but not in any way crashing and then you don't need a sleep aid and you sleep more like we did before we had CFS. I felt its more natural for my body to at least try to keep my wake/sleep cycle as much as possible like a normal person.

And it just makes sense, even for people without CFS if they sat a home all day not doing much at all and napping all the time they wouldn't sleep well at night.

I forgot to add it took me like a week or so of pushing myself and doing this every day with the sleep still not being good until then it suddenly worked. And it reinforces itself, once my sleep got better I could be more active and less resisted to take naps during the day which made me more ready to sleep at night without any help and so on.

I doubt whether many people with ME just sit around doing nothing or not much - we tend to overdo things if anything!

I don't think that I have observed any difference in sleep quantity or quality related to activity levels except that they are much worse when I have overdone things 2-3 days earlier.

But it appears we are all different!

I wonder whether you have a diagnosis of ME/CFS? I see you have only been ill since January 2013.

 

[MeSci]

Thanks for your feedback. I have used NOW and Kirkmans GABA, both of them pretty useless. Wish I tried the pharmaGABA instead! Will probably try it now. When you are this desperate is absurd not to try things.

Now is my turn. What I have found to help my sleep? Waking up early everyday and earthing did the trick for some months. For me, waking up early will mean an earlier onset of sleep, and waking up later will make a later onset of sleep. It does work somewhat so my cyrcadian rhythm isn´t completely dead. All this time I was waking up very early 8 AM or so. Sleep hygiene does have an effect even with melatonin and GABA defficiencies, for me at least.

What has happened recently is that one day I woke up at 7 as usual but rolled back to sleep til 9, next day because of later sleep onset at night until 11 and today until 14:00 (lunch time). A vicious cycle. I indulged in waking up later and now I am screwed and it feels like earthing no longer works. I guess I could be trying getting up early no matter what hour I fell asleep but that sounds like a very very bad day... And there is no guarantee it will work...

All this does not make a dent in getting more refreshing sleep by the way. It just makes the torture of being awake in your bed at midnight for hours dissapear, which is something. And I look and feel slightly better when I sleep at the "correct" hours.

Just noticed that all 3 people whose messages I have seen with a positive experience of 'sleep hygiene' are male. Significant?

 

[MeSci]

Every single person I know of from the clinical side in hospitals and in personal life always started their benzo use that way. Just once here and there, then very slowly it creeps up on you and you start breaking the rules you made about taking them because they seem to work so well and make you feel better (or so it seems for a while) until after some time you are taking it all the time and more and more of it.

They are simply extremely addictive drugs, just as addictive as heroin, cocaine, amphetamine and it is literally impossible for most people to do those drugs just once in a while. After time, it creeps up on you and you become thoroughly addicted.

I wouldn't go that far. Addictiveness varies between people for different drugs. I took benzos during (EDIT) three periods of my life and had no problems stopping. I took them for months each time. The last time I did find myself very tempted to increase my dosage, but used as much willpower as I could whilst keeping my distress levels just about manageable.

I have been addicted to other things - tobacco and amphetamine - but was able to use both occasionally afterwards without any tendency to move towards addiction again.

Context can be important for addiction, and individual variations in neurotransmission are also likely to be factors, such as size of synaptic gap, levels of neurotransmitter and expression of receptors.

I do agree with your general points about benzos though - best avoided if possible except maybe for very short periods. I was one of the lucky ones. They can be very addictive and extremely hard to come off. As we have a chronic illness that is at the root of our sleep problems, a drug that is only suitable for short-term use would appear to be inappropriate.

 

[MeSci]

Thanks for pointing out the wiki article, leokitten. Reading it, I saw that a number of times it is said that not everyone agrees, some doctors and researchers do not find damage from short, even long term use. Also, some patients do become addicted and have a very hard time getting off, and some don't. You can't tell from the article, however, what percentage of doctors or patients see the negative symptoms and what percentage do not, and how common or uncommon the worst consequences are.

I agree that there are down sides to almost every medication, this type for sure, but that the stress and degradation of one's life from insomnia can also be very destructive. So we each should really try to weigh costs and benefits.

For me when I used a third of a .5 mg tablet of clonazepam, I did not have to use it every night in a row and I could get off them--slowly to be sure. It did make the difference in sleeping well vs. a partial night's sleep with multiple arousals or awakenings. However, if my diet and sleep hygiene and circumstances (quiet, no stress, and usually a chance to nap the next day) are all in place, I can go on without clonazepam or the like. But if I have to travel, or fit into normal people's schedules and be able to function ok, I could sometimes use it.

Back to the "cost" side, I did feel an addictive pull with this drug and after awhile I noticed it added a degree of depression to my life that wasn't there before. By this I do not mean an addictive compulsion, nor do I mean major depression and suicidality, I just mean an addictive tendency and a somewhat depressive one too. After I got off the clonazepam, both aspects went away, which I appreciated. But as I said in my previous post, my original insomnia pattern re-emerged right away and continues on.

Ambien is the only one of the Z drugs I have tried. It doesn't last long enough but worse, I have had amnesia episodes with it which could have been real trouble. I took the warning and won't take this type of drug.

I think this is a very perceptive and thoughtful summary.

I just tried to find a good review of benzos, and this one may be of interest. It also looks at 'Z drugs'.

 

[MeSci]

Potter's Nodoff (extract of Passion Flower / Passiflora) can help me sometimes. It has a similar action to Valium but is short lasting (about 3 hours), so it just helps you drop off to sleep but you don't wake up feeling groggy at all. Beware that it might interact adversely with prescription anti-depressants. The only negative for me is that I feel slightly agitated the next day, so I think it might be slightly addictive (i.e. you build a tolerance to it very quickly, and you experience the opposite effect when it wears off.) It's not a problem for me, but it might be for people who have trouble weaning themselves off Valium type drugs.

I tried a herbal sedative (I think it was a Potter's one) years ago, which contained valerian, passiflora and some other things (chamomile?). It gave me a headache and a fuzzy brain.

 

[MeSci]

I must say that it is upsetting to hear that the Benzos are so bad for you, but after hearing this, not being told about options. I have found that the Xanax help me sleep, and stops the adrenaline surges that accompany my autonomic issues. Please, please tell me if there other things that will do the same without the damage, and not just scare the crap out of me because of what I actually happen to be taking now? And BTW, I was on Klonopin for two years, during which I finished college and started working full time as an Occupational therapist. I stopped the Klonopin and have not seen any difference in my brain power. Are you sure that all this is true? I am really desperate to get good sleep. I have tried Valerian, Melatonin, Kava, Flexoril, Ambien, you name it I have tried it. I really wish there was something that nourished the body and provided quality sleep without taking a dangerous toll on the body. I really do. I don't mean to come across rude, but I am very frustrated as I am sure others are.

As well as the diet and sedatives I have mentioned, I find that if I allow myself to look at the vague shapes that are visible after I close my eyes, watching them as they move and change, resisting any urges to analyse or influence them, I can drift off quite quickly. It is easier if you look at a light for a few seconds just before switching it off, as the shapes are then brighter and easier to see. Sometimes they seem to disappear, but they come back.

I also find that having the radio on can help me to drift off.

Before the diet and supplements improved my sleep so much, I used to watch kaleidoscopic videos, which helped, but my eyes got tired before my brain, which was frustrating.

Thanks to the diet and supplements, I usually fall asleep quickly now. I wake several times to urinate, but usually get back to sleep quickly.

If I have over-exerted, or am especially anxious about something, I have the problems of getting to sleep, getting back to sleep and waking early that others mention, and which I used to have almost every night.

 

[Beyond]

I tried a herbal sedative (I think it was a Potter's one) years ago, which contained valerian, passiflora and some other things (chamomile?). It gave me a headache and a fuzzy brain.

I never felt anything at all from valerian, pasiflora and the such.

 

[MeSci]

You sound a lot like me. I only had to take the L-Glycine for three nights to get rid of fibromyalgia--it was a miracle.
I think I only take 600 mgs NAC so maybe I should up it. Yes, with the NAC and klonopin I do fall asleep but about 5am I am UP. I never thought of taking more NAC when I wake up but maybe that's worth a try too.

I've also been just taking a handful of aspirin when I wake up and can't go back to sleep -- not on an empty stomach though, I have a piece of bread to protect my stomach from the aspirin. It can help me fall back to sleep. Boy, if I do fall back to sleep at 5am I sleep very soundly until 10 or 11. Of course, by then half the day is gone.

May I ask what you take aspirin for? AFAIK it has no sedating properties. I haven't heard of bread protecting the stomach either, and many people with ME find that reducing the intake of grains improves their health, including me, and that includes my sleep. Cutting out gluten and reducing grains and sugar is thought to improve gut health, which in turn can reduce the autoimmune activity which may cause ME.

 

[Bob]

I tried a herbal sedative (I think it was a Potter's one) years ago, which contained valerian, passiflora and some other things (chamomile?). It gave me a headache and a fuzzy brain.

The Potter's passiflora that I provided a link to only contains passiflora extract as an active ingredient.
But we probably all react differently to herbal products. What helps one person won't necessarily help another.