B-12 - The Hidden Story

[doveman]

Wildaisy and dmholmes, the mb12 has never made me sleepy, although I found I had to have a nap after the hydroxy injections!

When I started taking mb12 last year, along with methyfolate and B-right, I found it made me have refreshing sleep and I could get out of bed easily after 6 hours sleep, whereas I normally wake up feeling knackered and it takes me ages to get up, so it certainly did have an effect on my melatonin/sleep cycle. Unfortunately, I've recently started taking it again after not having done so for a few months, and I can't get this effect any more which is annoying.

I started taking it again because on the 11 April I was getting numb limbs that were worrying me and preventing me sleeping and I was also very dizzy, so that I kept panicking in the bath and this dizziness was also preventing me from sleeping. Thankfully, these symptoms have gone now. I started with one MB12, one methylfolate and one B-Right in the morning on 14 April but still had these symptoms on Monday 19 April, so I changed the morning MB12 to AdB12 and then took MB12, methyfolate and B-right in the evening as well. The next day I felt much better, with no dizziness and I felt quite energetic for about half a day.

That day I took only methylfolate and B-right morning and evening, to determine whether they, rather than the MB12/AdB12 was responsible. The next day (Wednesday) I felt quite knackered when I woke, so I took the Methylfolate, B-Right and MB12 morning and evening to see if two MB12 made a difference. Today I woke feeling tired and I've had tingling in my left hand/fingers all day. I went shopping this afternoon and my left arm/shoulder was killing me on the way home and my feet/lower legs have been aching ever since, which is a problem I had when I was B12 deficient before I started the hydroxy injections.

Today I'm doubling up the MB12 again, so two in the morning and two in the evening and if that doesn't help I'll start experimenting more with the AdB12, as that seems to have had more effect so far.

 

[Freddd]

Wildaisy and dmholmes, the mb12 has never made me sleepy, although I found I had to have a nap after the hydroxy injections!

When I started taking mb12 last year, along with methyfolate and B-right, I found it made me have refreshing sleep and I could get out of bed easily after 6 hours sleep, whereas I normally wake up feeling knackered and it takes me ages to get up, so it certainly did have an effect on my melatonin/sleep cycle. Unfortunately, I've recently started taking it again after not having done so for a few months, and I can't get this effect any more which is annoying.

I started taking it again because on the 11 April I was getting numb limbs that were worrying me and preventing me sleeping and I was also very dizzy, so that I kept panicking in the bath and this dizziness was also preventing me from sleeping. Thankfully, these symptoms have gone now. I started with one MB12, one methylfolate and one B-Right in the morning on 14 April but still had these symptoms on Monday 19 April, so I changed the morning MB12 to AdB12 and then took MB12, methyfolate and B-right in the evening as well. The next day I felt much better, with no dizziness and I felt quite energetic for about half a day.

That day I took only methylfolate and B-right morning and evening, to determine whether they, rather than the MB12/AdB12 was responsible. The next day (Wednesday) I felt quite knackered when I woke, so I took the Methylfolate, B-Right and MB12 morning and evening to see if two MB12 made a difference. Today I woke feeling tired and I've had tingling in my left hand/fingers all day. I went shopping this afternoon and my left arm/shoulder was killing me on the way home and my feet/lower legs have been aching ever since, which is a problem I had when I was B12 deficient before I started the hydroxy injections.

Today I'm doubling up the MB12 again, so two in the morning and two in the evening and if that doesn't help I'll start experimenting more with the AdB12, as that seems to have had more effect so far.

Hi Doveman,

I'm back from "medical week" and can get back to living and so on. It's been a distracting period and I will get that "b-12 deficiency" definition done.

I am interested in seeing the differential effects of mb12 and adb12, and effects on sleep etc.

Based on what I have read I'll try to put some perspective on things but a lot of things have at best thin research support because of the things not studied, such as use of adb12 and mb12 together

Mb12 is normally considered to have more effect on sleep. It's lack causes an assortment of sleep disorders or maybe one sleep disorder that manifests in a multitude af ways. Mb12 causes a surge in melatonin, usually 8-12 hours AFTER taking but that timing has't been researched that I am aware of. With investigations of SAD, Seasonal Affective Disorder and the use of lights affecting melatonin production, it was found that there are a variety of phase relationships between when the light is used and when people respond in certain ways and how it affects sleep. Perhaps what we are seeing here is just such a phase relationship in which different timings of mb12 and/or adb12 affect melatonin and sleep.

When I started MB12 I started sleeping MUCH better within a couple of weeks. Instead of being exhausted all the time and sleep occurred whrn I shut my eyes and if they were open I was awake, there became much more differentiation between sleep and awake. I started getting outright tired and sleepy in the evening and started feeling refreshed when I woke up. I went from about 5-6 hours of poor quality sleep (4-5 hours before I started pain meds) to 8+ hours of good quality sleep. I had been without dreams for 20 years. They returned the day I started Metafolin. Others have reported similar things.

Before the mb12 I didn't get jet-lagged. My body had no real phase attachement to light cycles or anything like that. After the mb12 I had a strong phase relationship with sleep and get jet-lagged now. It took two weeks after I started the mb12 for my body to come into that phase relationship. This lack of phase relationship is one of the aspects of sleep disorder that offten comes with FMS/CFS.

My experience and the research on mb12 and SAD indicate that when you are exposed to light perhaps could be affecting this melatonin-sleep phase relationship as well. This is just a thought, maybe something to consider the possibility of in looking at all this and working through it.

One of my suggestions is to try any spectific timing for 2-4 weeks to give the body a chance to adjust. It takes time for a body to adjust to a lot of these things and my expeience in the past with many people is that making a lot of rapid changes doesn't give the body a chance to reach an equilibrium with any of them. And in the case of CFS/FMS the equilibrium appears very disturbed.

Just how adb12 fits into this equibrium is hard to say. It certainly is tied into the energy cycles of the body but exactly how it affects these things invloved with melatonin/sleep cycle isn't clear.

 

[sela]

does anyone know the absolute rock bottom cheapest place to buy hydroxy b 12 shots? i thought i read it here somewhere.

 

[Sunday]

My two cents' worth on the mb12/sleep issue: I did and do find that it helps my quality of sleep a lot, it has become more refreshing, and continues to. I still need help from other agencies to get to sleep, though. But it's much better than using sleeping aids and still getting crappy white-noise sleep.

I was intrigued to hear that some people get sleepy immediately after taking b12s, because my experience is exactly the opposite. While it helps with my sleep quality, the immediate effects are energizing, so much that I slip them in my mouth first thing in order to get energy and motivation enough to get out of bed. I've also occasionally used mb12 to stave off crashes of an afternoon, the way I used to drink an extra cup of coffee when I needed to get something done. I haven't tried taking b12s in the evening because I thought they'd set me up for insomnia; it does seem to be harder to get to sleep when I take mb12 later in the day. Interesting how there are so many different constellations of response in this illness.

I got some very good tips for fooling with my protocol, thanks.

 

[Freddd]

Thank you, David and Doveman and Freddd. I should have said more clearly--I have been B12 deficient (based on tests) for many years. I have taken cyanocobalamin and hydroxycobalamin injections more than once. These caused me major problems, particularly with nausea and headaches, but they never showed me any benefit as to sleep. I had also tried Rich's Simplified Methylation protocol, but as soon as I tried the hydroxycobalamin, I got so sick (nausea, headache, vertigo) I had to stop. I had tried this three or four times before giving up.

That is why I was surprised to find that the adb12 and mb12 are helping with sleep. It has been a very pleasant surprise, and I hope it continues. I am excited to hear your experiences, David and Freddd, because it looks like maybe these sleep benefits are real and may continue.

I had been convinced that I would be unable to take B12 because of these past reactions. This time, though, I followed Freddd's advice and started the other vitamins and minerals first, and then started bits of adb12. The very first day I got an awful rash (on 1/4 tablet of adb12) and had to slow down. I waited about three days and started again (on a tiny sliver of a tablet) and worked up from that and added in the mb12 and worked up on both. I never got the rash again, although I do still get flushed skin. And I never got any of the nausea and headaches I had gotten in earlier tries of B12. So I am just delighted with being able to tolerate B12, and I am grateful to Freddd for finding the way here.

Hi Wildaisy,

You are not the first person to have a different reaction to mb12/adb12 than to hycbl/cycbl. Concerning adb12/mb12, each step of the way is different. Various researchers speak of a triage system within the body determing where the scarcest resource, usually b12, gets allocated. Some things have other workarounds, ie methylfolate, if available. However, each step that is taken changes the situation so the reaction to the next dose may be different just because the body is not quite as deficient as it was for the previous dose. That rapid changing of symptoms and reactions is one of the outstanding chracteristics of using the immediately active without transformation b12s. Having a surplus of active b12 that doesn't go through the allocation system allows all sorts of things to get activated that had been stalled a long time, so startup can be fast and hard for the most deficient. However, even that can vary becasue of the way some peoples bodies allocate what little b12 is avaialbe and lacks in some places produce bigger and/or different reactions than lacks in other places.

I'm very glad to hear that you are finding your way thorugh the maze. There be monsters lurking in this maze and the only way past them is through. My sleep has stayed improved for going on 7 years now. I'm doing the best I have since I was in my 20s on that count.

 

[DrD]

Wildaisy, the mb12 makes me sleepy also. I asked a while back, either here or at WD, at nobody else had the same reaction. Today is the first day I planned on moving it to nighttime instead of morning. We'll see how it goes. There is a connection from mb12 to melatonin and sleep cycle, not sure why it would be so quick for us.

Take care,
David

hi David, Wildaisy,

This was intially my response as well during the intially stages of recovery from my B12 deficiency. Once you reach a serum equilibrium this effect my cease as it did in my case. The sublingual mb12 no longer make me fall asleep. However, when i take an 8mg/injection, the sleep that follows is often much more deep and restful than other days when i don't inject.

 

[dmholmes]

hi David, Wildaisy,

This was intially my response as well during the intially stages of recovery from my B12 deficiency. Once you reach a serum equilibrium this effect my cease as it did in my case. The sublingual mb12 no longer make me fall asleep. However, when i take an 8mg/injection, the sleep that follows is often much more deep and restful than other days when i don't inject.

I've been on the protocol for over 6 months, it is not an initial response for me.

 

[richvank]

Wildaisy, the mb12 makes me sleepy also. I asked a while back, either here or at WD, at nobody else had the same reaction. Today is the first day I planned on moving it to nighttime instead of morning. We'll see how it goes. There is a connection from mb12 to melatonin and sleep cycle, not sure why it would be so quick for us.

Take care,
David

Hi, David.

A methylation reaction is needed to convert serotonin to melatonin. If you have normal intracellular B12 processing enzymes, the methyl group will be removed initially from any methylcobalamin that is transported into a cell by transcobalamin. Some of these methyl groups may be available in the cells of the pineal gland to convert serotonin to melatonin, which would help to make a person sleepy.

Rich

 

[leaves]

Many sublingual b12 tablets contain salicylates (eg cherry extract) i am intolerant to them because of problem with my pst enzyme/ sulphur metabolism. It makes me sleepy too. I know of several Pwc with this sensitivity, it is also very commen in asd and fm.

 

[Freddd]

Many sublingual b12 tablets contain salicylates (eg cherry extract) i am intolerant to them because of problem with my pst enzyme/ sulphur metabolism. It makes me sleepy too. I know of several Pwc with this sensitivity, it is also very commen in asd and fm.

Hi Leaves,

That makes reading the label even more important. Fortunately different brands have different flavoring, such as the Jarrow 1mg with lemon flavoring. That is one of those things that people without such a sensitivity would not likely be aware of.

 

[Freddd]

Hi, David.

A methylation reaction is needed to convert serotonin to melatonin. If you have normal intracellular B12 processing enzymes, the methyl group will be removed initially from any methylcobalamin that is transported into a cell by transcobalamin. Some of these methyl groups may be available in the cells of the pineal gland to convert serotonin to melatonin, which would help to make a person sleepy.

Rich

Hi Rich,

A person taking the sublingual mb12/adb12 would have the mb12/adb12 directly available by diffusion into the cell often starting within 5-10 minutes of placement of the tablet against the tissue whether the person has normal enzymes or not. For several hours anybody taking an mb12/adb12 sublingual will have up to hundreds of times as much mb12/adb12 directly available by diffusion than the total cobalamin bound in the entire body as HTC2. This has an immediate effect that is noticable to many people who have any b12 reactions "on hold" waiting for the needed form of active b12 to come along. The "on hold" reactions then can happen immediately, and some of them do, without going through a long and slow "triage" of handing out a dribble of b12 here and there. When there is no backlog of unexceuted reactions that are noticable, there is no noticable reaction. These various reactions will occur in about half of a random population and in excess of 90% of those with suitable symptoms.

Hundreds of near immediate reactions are the norm in people taking active b12s initially. During several months the reactions tail down until there are none remaing in most people. Three days without mb12 is sufficient for many people having initial reactions to have a few once again and for symptoms to start returning. This is regardless of genetics. The genetics may cause the reactions to be more extreme, making a "hypersensitive" out of a person but they don't cause the reactions unless you want to include half the population as having some specific genetic attribute, such as the 50% unable to convert folic acid to full channel capacity, which may not be adequate.

 

[Freddd]

I've been on the protocol for over 6 months, it is not an initial response for me.

Hi David,

Have you tried the 50/51mg dose? What occured if you did? For me and some others with an apparant CNS/CSF deficiency, I am aware of daily reactions to such a dose until I get up to 3 x 10mg injected daily. Then everything smooths out and I have continuous CNS functioning and improvements.

 

[Freddd]

Questions about different responses

Now that some months have passed I have a few questions about effects. The more people that answer the better. I'm looking for noticable differences of any kind; the good the bad and the ugly or none at all. And if you are willing to detail the differences in each case even better. If not at least a few yes/no or N.A. answers would help.

Did methylcobalamin have any effect noticably different in any way from hydroxycobalamin?

Did methylcobalamin have any effect noticably different in any way from cyanocobalamin?

Did methylcobalamin have any effect noticably different in any way from adenosylcobalamin?

Did adenosylcobalamin have any effect noticably different in any way from hydroxycobalamin?

Did adenosylcobalamin have any effect noticably different in any way from cyanocobalamin?

Did cyanocobalamin have any effect noticably different in any way from hydroxycobalamin?

Did anybody notice no differences of any kind no matter what form of cobalamin they took.

Did taking any form of cobalamin make any difference over NO cobalamin at all.

 

[dmholmes]

Hi David,

Have you tried the 50/51mg dose? What occured if you did? For me and some others with an apparant CNS/CSF deficiency, I am aware of daily reactions to such a dose until I get up to 3 x 10mg injected daily. Then everything smooths out and I have continuous CNS functioning and improvements.

No I haven't. I had an overdriven methylation cycle, so I'm doing a much lower dose that I was.

Now that I have moved the methylcobalamin to nighttime, I don't believe it is making me sleepy after all. It was just the time of day I was taking it at. In addition to sleeping longer than previously, I also get sleepy about 3 or 4 hours after waking and need to nap. I was taking the methylcobalamin a couple of hours after waking.

 

[dmholmes]

Hi Leaves,

That makes reading the label even more important. Fortunately different brands have different flavoring, such as the Jarrow 1mg with lemon flavoring. That is one of those things that people without such a sensitivity would not likely be aware of.

Along those lines, as suspected the Enzymatic Therapy methylcobalamin has not given me any teeth/gum issues as the Jarrow 5 mg did.

 

[Sunday]

Now that some months have passed I have a few questions about effects. The more people that answer the better. I'm looking for noticable differences of any kind; the good the bad and the ugly or none at all. And if you are willing to detail the differences in each case even better. If not at least a few yes/no or N.A. answers would help.

Fred, I haven't taken all of these kinds of cobalamin, but I'll answer what I can.

Did methylcobalamin have any effect noticably different in any way from hydroxycobalamin?

Did methylcobalamin have any effect noticably different in any way from cyanocobalamin?

Yes, very noticeably. Cyanocobalamin no longer affected me; mb12 affects me in many ways.

Did methylcobalamin have any effect noticably different in any way from adenosylcobalamin?

Yes, mb12 much more complex than adb12. Also, as far as I could tell I never had any unpleasant effects from adb12 while I did have plenty from mb12 for some months.

Did adenosylcobalamin have any effect noticably different in any way from hydroxycobalamin?

Did adenosylcobalamin have any effect noticably different in any way from cyanocobalamin?

I don't remember having euphoria when I first tried cyanocobalamin; I definitely experienced euphoria with my first dose of adb12. Cyanob12 did energize me noticeably before the DD, I could feel it surging through me, reviving me. But somewhere in the onset of CFS, cyanob12 stopped having any effect. I'm still not sure what effects I'm getting from adb12; my body energy level is still poor.

Did cyanocobalamin have any effect noticably different in any way from hydroxycobalamin?

Did anybody notice no differences of any kind no matter what form of cobalamin they took.

No, I definitely noticed differences among the three I've taken in terms of immediate effects. If by differences you mean longer-term differences in my CFS, I'm still trying to work that out. Some things have improved, while others have stayed the same, or have gotten worse. In both cases it's been over the 6.5 months I've been doing the protocol; different from the passing getting better or worsening of symptoms.

Did taking any form of cobalamin make any difference over NO cobalamin at all.

Yes. I think I pretty much answered that question above as well as I can.

 

[Sunday]

David, I was interested to hear about your response (or perhaps your lack of certain kinds of response) to the Enzymatic Therapy mb12. I thought, after Freddd's enthusiastic review, that I might give it a trial; it's on order.

I definitely have higher energy when the mb12s are still in my mouth, but it doesn't seem to persist when I don't. And my general level of energy still goes up and down, but always in the same range; that range doesn't extend itself even as high as when I first got this illness. I don't know if the different formula will help that situation, but it's worth a try.

 

[soulfeast]

I apologize for chiming in so late in the thread. I am going insane with these crazy creepy feelings seemingly originating in my spine. I am considering a lyme flare (which herbs so far are not touching) and also B12 deficiency. I was taking hydroxo sublingual 2 mg once a day, drops in drinks, and a 1mg shot 3 times a week. I recently started to take the hydroxo with folirinse about 6 times a day. This creepiness has gone through the roof. I am wondering if FA in some way diminishes the effect of B12. Im also wondering what you think fredd of using hydroxyo, methyl and adenyl forms together and how high you start out and dose up to.. and what you dose for FA and only metafolin? thanks! oh.. i have low homocysteine. my mvc went into normal range after supplementing with hydroxo and 400mcg folicin. I had been working up on metafolin. I was taking 400mcg folicin and tapered off to 5 methyl (thorne so the jury s out if thats metafolin untl my md office gets back to me). I am up to 200mcg of 5 methly and 200mcg folicin. I feel like my spine is collapsing.

 

[soulfeast]

Fredd, Im curious how you supplement amino acids. Were you low and what is your status now? What role do you think supplementation plays in the methylation process? Thank you!

 

[Freddd]

I apologize for chiming in so late in the thread. I am going insane with these crazy creepy feelings seemingly originating in my spine. I am considering a lyme flare (which herbs so far are not touching) and also B12 deficiency. I was taking hydroxo sublingual 2 mg once a day, drops in drinks, and a 1mg shot 3 times a week. I recently started to take the hydroxo with folirinse about 6 times a day. This creepiness has gone through the roof. I am wondering if FA in some way diminishes the effect of B12. Im also wondering what you think fredd of using hydroxyo, methyl and adenyl forms together and how high you start out and dose up to.. and what you dose for FA and only metafolin? thanks! oh.. i have low homocysteine. my mvc went into normal range after supplementing with hydroxo and 400mcg folicin. I had been working up on metafolin. I was taking 400mcg folicin and tapered off to 5 methyl (thorne so the jury s out if thats metafolin untl my md office gets back to me). I am up to 200mcg of 5 methly and 200mcg folicin. I feel like my spine is collapsing.

Hi Soulfeast,

You are not late at all. The thread is ongoing and always evolving.


Im also wondering what you think fredd of using hydroxyo, methyl and adenyl forms together and how high you start out and dose up to.

I don't generally believe that hycbl will do anything in addition to mb12 and adb12 as the only way it becomes active is to be converted to one or both of those. A 1000mcg mb12 sublingual of one of the 5 star brands will put about 150-250mcg of mb12 into the serum when held 45-120 minutes under the lip. THe 3000 mcg Country life dibencozide (adb12) will put about 450-750mcg into serum over 45-120 minutes based on tests I have performed compared to injections. A dose of hycbl can result in 10-30mcg of hycbl being converted to mb12 or adb12 which is practicvally nothing compared to the 5 star sublingual immediately active b12s. I started with 1 x 1000mcg mb12 daily and increased from there to 15-25mg sublingual daily where effect topped out. I started with 1 x 3mg adb12 daily after I was already up to 15mg of mb12. Now my preferred usage is 18mg of adb12 once a week as a single 2 hour dose. Currently I inject 3x10mg sc injections daily of mb12. I need this for my CNS healing restoring feeling and control in my feet after subacute combined degeneration. I found no advanatage to injectiong adb12 as compared to weekly doses sublingually. Some people do better on adb12 daily.

I used the approach of continuing to increase dose as long as benefit increased.


Folic acid is converted to active folates at full channel capacity of 800mcg daily in about half the population and none at all in 20% of population. Even full channel capacity of 800mcg of Folic acid converted to active folate may not be enough.

Metafolin is a brand name of a specifically produced stable methylfolate by Merck. It is licensed to a small number of vitamin companies and those lable it on the bottle as such. Other forms of methylfolate exist. I have only tested the Metafolin and I couldn't be more pleased on effectiveness. Brand matters massively on the sublingual methylb12 and adb12. Thorne methylfolate is not Metafolin. I have no idea of how well it works as compared to the brand name Metafolin. Solgar Metafolin from iherb is less than $13/100 tablets of 800mcg.

I also strongly suggest a B-complex like B-Right that contains multiple coenzyme b factors. Also, A&D, ZINC, POTASSIUM (can be critical to preventing death), magnesium, calcium, omega3 oils (critical for neurological healing) and alll other basics. Also critical cofactors. See the complete lists at the beginning of this thread.

I don't generally supplement amino acids. I do find l-carnitine fumarate to be critical. I have also found Nac & l-glutamine and other such precursors to glutathione to be a real problem canceling out active b12s and active folate.