Anti-oxidants help CFS, studies I ran across

[triffid113]

Triffid 13
I was not referring to the experiment itself, (I know swimming is a legal method used in many experiments).

- but to the blindingly obvious fact that it is not a valid model for CFS or ME.

Not scientifically theoretically.
Not even biopsychosocially theoretically!

They have not been subjected to any "biopsychosocial" stressors, any maintaining factors, nothing.

It is a model for sporty burn-out. Nothing more.

On these grounds, the experiments were illegal.

Sorry, I got that and I agreed that I wondered how applicable it is. (Maybe I responded to someone else not you on that point). I didn't actually retrieve any of these papers and couldn't say if any of them did anything halfway intelligent like take sample cells and analysis the mitochondria in them. If I were a researcher I would want to do at least that before trying to make any claims regarding CFS.

However, there is some relevance to fatigue and it is interesting what things helped normal fatigue. Seems to me that science should have come up with a more humane way to test that since the dark ages of the 60's. There are groups out there now who advocate for animals and it's really sad when you look at studies through google/scholar and find how many studies are still done very inhumanely.

 

[Valentijn]

However, there is some relevance to fatigue and it is interesting what things helped normal fatigue.

Not really. The "fatigue" which comes from over-exertion is healthy people (or mice) is nothing at all like PEM or any other ME/CFS symptoms.

Researchers focusing on the "F" word just indicates that have absolutely no idea what ME/CFS is.

 

[peggy-sue]

I am hoping my brother might be in a position to make an official complaint about it, given this is exactly the sort of journal he has published in before.
On the other hand, he is not the sort of person who ever makes complaints about anything, or sticks his neck out anywhere, for any reason... we differ a bit there.

 

[peggy-sue]

He has pointed out that the study was carried out in India - we have no idea what regulations are in place there about unethical use of animals.
And it seems that there is no scope for comment on the article on medline,
Perhaps because of the states being "closed for business" right now...

Wee brother says he'll put his thinking cap on about what can be said; I've said I'll say it.
team-work.

 

[MeSci]

I told him they made mice overswim. He said exactly what I did. (we chat every sunday)
He is going to give them a good going over.

The problem is, the scientists who were doing this obviously have no idea what ME is - because they have obtained their information from the psychobabblers.
Just what a waste of time and effort and expense, torturing animals unneccessarily.

perhaps a Eureka moment...

Could anybody make a serious complaint about this study on the grounds of the completely unethical use of the animals - particularly as considerable suffering is entailed?

I don't know what the law on animal experimentation allows in India - it may have improved since then but I don't hold out much hope. Unnecessary suffering is supposed to be prohibited in the UK - i.e. the end has to justify the means, but in science there is no way to be sure what the end might be - there is only the near-certainty that there will be suffering to a certain severity category. Then when it comes to enforcing the rules and checking that they are not broken...well - no one is ever punished.

I believe that in the US there are no laws protecting rodents in animal research, but I'm sure someone will correct me if I am wrong.

But animal models are generally rubbish - a waste of time and money, and a lot of unnecessary suffering.

I have studied this issue in great depth and wrote a substantial report on it in 2010 - unfortunately not published.

 

[MeSci]

This was the new hot therapy for us in the late 90s through early 00s. I was on it for years. Cold-pressed whey protein is the key thing. Heat processed whey protein loses its bioactive properties. This research goes back to about 88 I think, when some researcher studying glutathione in rats found their levels suddenly dropped. They had been fed whey protein as a big part of their protein intake. Suddenly it was no longer working. the researcher tracked the manufacturers down, and found the pasteurization temperature had been increased. High temperatures denatures the protein, and it no longer triggers glutathione synthesis, even if it still provides some of the amino acids.

Now human dietary research using rodent 'models' is truly absurd. Rodents are overwhelmingly herbivores. Their biochemistry is substantially different from ours.

 

[MeSci]

[Satire] SW and PW might be able to go one step further. They can interpret the footprints on their questionnaires, and may conclude that the mice are happy with their progress, and recovered.

But don't forget the CBT!

 

[MeSci]

Sorry, I got that and I agreed that I wondered how applicable it is. (Maybe I responded to someone else not you on that point). I didn't actually retrieve any of these papers and couldn't say if any of them did anything halfway intelligent like take sample cells and analysis the mitochondria in them. If I were a researcher I would want to do at least that before trying to make any claims regarding CFS.

However, there is some relevance to fatigue and it is interesting what things helped normal fatigue. Seems to me that science should have come up with a more humane way to test that since the dark ages of the 60's. There are groups out there now who advocate for animals and it's really sad when you look at studies through google/scholar and find how many studies are still done very inhumanely.

I just stop reading studies when I find that they are on the wrong species. It was a waste of time and money and lives doing the research, it would be a waste of my time to read it, and I don't want to waste anyone else's time by citing it!

There are plenty of humane ways to test fatigue on human volunteers. It costs more, but the results are relevant, so the time and money are not wasted.

Animal research is done largely out of academic and institutional inertia.

 

[peggy-sue]

My point is still not about animal testing per se, but about what exactly was done to these mice in terms of simulating "CFS".

Over exercising, then getting stimulants to improve performance, has nothing to do with CFS (or ME).

They claim it is a model for CFS.
This is the point on which they need challenged.

No matter how poor any animal model might be, this one does not even give a nod towards CFS or ME.

 

[Mya Symons]

Does anybody know where I could get a supplement that is the catalase enzyme alone? Most of the Catalase supplements are combination anti-grey hair supplements and it either has SOD or multivitamins and other herbs mixed in. I am already taking a multivitamin through the Pall Protocol and I cannot take SOD. When I tried it, it made me crash big time. It's my understanding that people with ME and FMS have too much SOD and not enough glutathione or catalase enzyme. Thus, taking SOD would be detrimental. If anyone has found a relatively cheap catalase only enzyme supplement or powder could you please let me know? Thanks for your help.

 

[MeSci]

Does anybody know where I could get a supplement that is the catalase enzyme alone? Most of the Catalase supplements are combination anti-grey hair supplements and it either has SOD or multivitamins and other herbs mixed in. I am already taking a multivitamin through the Pall Protocol and I cannot take SOD. When I tried it, it made me crash big time. It's my understanding that people with ME and FMS have too much SOD and not enough glutathione or catalase enzyme. Thus, taking SOD would be detrimental. If anyone has found a relatively cheap catalase only enzyme supplement or powder could you please let me know? Thanks for your help.

I'm not sure that oral enzyme supplements will do any good. Enzymes are proteins, and proteins are broken down by stomach acid.

 

[xrunner]

It's my understanding that people with ME and FMS have too much SOD and not enough glutathione or catalase enzyme. Thus, taking SOD would be detrimental. .

The SODs (there's more than one) are usually low .
Regarding supplements at some point I tried Biotec's Runner's edge and Cellguard but did not make much difference overall and the Pall's protocol didn't either.
http://www.iherb.com/search?sug=biotec foods runner's edge antioxidant enzyme nutrition&kw=runne&rank=2#p=1