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Similarities between ME/CFS and MS

Sparrowhawk

Senior Member
Messages
514
Location
West Coast USA
http://www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7015/11/205

Myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome and encephalomyelitis disseminata/multiple sclerosis show remarkable levels of similarity in phenomenology and neuroimmune characteristics


Gerwyn Morris12* and Michael Maes23

Received: 16 June 2013
Accepted: 15 August 2013
Published: 17 September 2013



Abstract

Background

‘Encephalomyelitis disseminata’ (multiple sclerosis) and myalgic encephalomyelitis/chronic fatigue syndrome (ME/CFS) are both classified as diseases of the central nervous system by the World Health Organization. This review aims to compare the phenomenological and neuroimmune characteristics of MS with those of ME/CFS.

Something we've discussed on the board before under the heading of Is CFS/ME just MS light?




Discussion

There are remarkable phenomenological and neuroimmune overlaps between both disorders. Patients with ME/CFS and MS both experience severe levels of disabling fatigue and a worsening of symptoms following exercise and resort to energy conservation strategies in an attempt to meet the energy demands of day-to-day living. Debilitating autonomic symptoms, diminished cardiac responses to exercise, orthostatic intolerance and postural hypotension are experienced by patients with both illnesses.

Both disorders show a relapsing-remitting or progressive course, while infections and psychosocial stress play a large part in worsening of fatigue symptoms.

Activated immunoinflammatory, oxidative and nitrosative (O+NS) pathways and autoimmunity occur in both illnesses. The consequences of O+NS damage to self-epitopes is evidenced by the almost bewildering and almost identical array of autoantibodies formed against damaged epitopes seen in both illnesses. Mitochondrial dysfunctions, including lowered levels of ATP, decreased phosphocreatine synthesis and impaired oxidative phosphorylation, are heavily involved in the pathophysiology of both MS and ME/CFS. The findings produced by neuroimaging techniques are quite similar in both illnesses and show decreased cerebral blood flow, atrophy, gray matter reduction, white matter hyperintensities, increased cerebral lactate and choline signaling and lowered acetyl-aspartate levels.

I found some of that hard to follow, but gather there are sufficient similarities to support their thesis. Bold passages are mine.
Summary

This review shows that there are neuroimmune similarities between MS and ME/CFS. This further substantiates the view that ME/CFS is a neuroimmune illness and that patients with MS are immunologically primed to develop symptoms of ME/CFS.
 

xchocoholic

Senior Member
Messages
2,947
Location
Florida
I wonder how any other chronic illnesses are like me.
My understanding is that integrative and functional medical professionals
view most, or all, chronic illnesses as the result of a damaged intestine.

It's no secret, at least on the internet, that many or most ms patients are
gluten intolerant. Just Google ms gluten to find this. The white lesions
on my brain vanished after changing my diet. As did my ataxia and right
foot drag. I still have fine motor skill problems and seizures.

I wonder why i was diagnosed with cfs/me instead of ms. tc .. x
 

xchocoholic

Senior Member
Messages
2,947
Location
Florida
Thanks for the info from David Weldon. It was interesting to see how much ms
has in common with me.

I'd love to know what Dr Wahls thinks of this.
 

alex3619

Senior Member
Messages
13,810
Location
Logan, Queensland, Australia
An issue I have with calling CFS/ME "MS light", aside from the issue that its more ME that is similar than CFS, is that in general CFS/ME has higher morbidity, though mortality is lower. MS is more likely to kill you, but ME is more likely to create severe disability. CF on the other hand, and most PVFS, I am not so sure about. CF is probably less morbid than MS, and most cases of PVFS probably are too. Its when you start comparing MS with ME that higher morbidity is apparent.
 

taniaaust1

Senior Member
Messages
13,054
Location
Sth Australia
I too had an issue with calling ME MS light.. as after all many ME cases are far more disabled then a lot with MS are. I know two people who have had MS long term and they are far more able then I are!! (One of those even came over and gave me a hand with doing my gardening one time).
.................

For those who want to further compare the similarities of ME and MS http://www.hfme.org/mevsmscondensedmodified.htm
 

xchocoholic

Senior Member
Messages
2,947
Location
Florida
So, is there a difference between ms and me ? The more i look at this the more
they look like the same illness. In both illnesses, degrees vary.

My me started out with bronchitis that wouldn't clear up despite repeat antibiotics.
I went downhill quickly from there. I wouldn't be surprised if I'd been given
flouroquinolones and that's what finished me off.
 

Shell

Senior Member
Messages
477
Location
England
Hillary Johnson records in Osler's Web that in the '80s and '90s a lot of people who were eventually found to have ME had been dx with MS - some had lesions in MRI scans.
I spent the first few years with MS as the possible dx, especially with the nerve damage, foot drag and loss of balance.
But the MRI was "inconclusive" "clear" "some wear and tear" "some spinal damage in two places" depending on which neuro was talking at me.
I've still got the partial paralysis so I can't walk - but this would tick the one-of-the-polio-viruses box that Ramsay considered.

It's also happened that people with a dx of ME or CFS turn out to have MS. The overlap is very marked.

I agree with Alex. I am way more disabled than friends with MS. I also wonder who will live longer; my heart and lungs have had it and we know from studies that heart failure is the number one cause of death in ME. It's difficult to get proper mortality figures when death certs say heart failure and don't mention ME or CFS. I can't help wondering if proper research was done whether ME and MS would have similar outcomes there too.
 

xchocoholic

Senior Member
Messages
2,947
Location
Florida
I wish I'd known this 23 years ago. I could've tried Dr Weldon's protocol.
I was lead down the food intolerance / leaky gut path in 2005 by an ex gp and since it
helped so much I didn't pay attention to this.

I wonder if all I did via diet was allow my body to better deal with
the infections I have. I know those with untreated celiac disease can't heal
because of Elizabeth Hasselbeck's story.
 

Shell

Senior Member
Messages
477
Location
England
An Australian science program did quite a balanced story on Dr Weldon and his cure for MS:
http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/stories/3572695.htm

Weldon also contends that some cases of CFS may be caused by Chlamydia Pneumonia:
http://cpnhelp.org/


It's interesting how often chlamydia Pneumonia pops up in discussions. I must try and find some papers on this.
On the food side of things. It's been known since well before dear ol'Hippocrates that what we eat affects our health and ability to heal. But modern farming and food production are big money and therefore politically powerful.
I have no doubt that what we are eating - soaked in chemicals from planting onwards - is partly to blame for how sick we are.
 
Messages
2,565
Location
US
From Dr Jamie's blog in February about ME/CFS: "I have called it MS light before and I think it is a good working hypothesis for now. Up To Date’s summary on MS is here. Note the many similarities, genetics, epidemiology (including cluster outbreaks), possible problems with the Hepatitis B vaccine. It seems to me our best hope post XMRV is to ride on the coattails of MS, even though it is pathetic that we need to, given that there are at least three times as many of us."

And a later blog: "I heard from people who took exception with my use of the nickname MS Light in previous blogs, feeling that it trivializes our illness. That was certainly not my intent, rather I think the comparison of ME to MS is a useful one conceptually, but sister illnesses is a better way to put it."

The Feb blog is at http://www.x-rx.net/blog/2013/02/ms-light.html and it has a lot about MS biomarkers and possibly leads for something similar in ME patients? I can't decipher it all.
 

sregan

Senior Member
Messages
703
Location
Southeast
I had an uncle who died in his 60's and was diagnosed with MS. He was wheelchair bound for at least a decade before he passed. Would that make me more likely to have MS than the general population? How would one know if they have CFS or MS? Or are they one in the same? Lately I've had Sun sensitivity and vision issues. Brain Fog has increased in the last few months.
 
Messages
2,565
Location
US
I had an uncle who died in his 60's and was diagnosed with MS. He was wheelchair bound for at least a decade before he passed. Would that make me more likely to have MS than the general population? How would one know if they have CFS or MS? Or are they one in the same? Lately I've had Sun sensitivity and vision issues. Brain Fog has increased in the last few months.


Most docs are clueless but say CFS if they don't know what else causes your fatigue. If they believe you and don't think it's psychiatric.

With the family history, I guess a good doc will order MRIs for you. Doctors would diagnose MS if you had the white stuff (which means demylineation) show up on MRIs.
 
Messages
15,786
I had an uncle who died in his 60's and was diagnosed with MS. He was wheelchair bound for at least a decade before he passed. Would that make me more likely to have MS than the general population? How would one know if they have CFS or MS? Or are they one in the same? Lately I've had Sun sensitivity and vision issues. Brain Fog has increased in the last few months.
I think there was a study showing that something like 30% of MS patients started off with an ME/CFS diagnosis. So just having ME/CFS means you have much higher than normal odds of having MS.
 

Old Salt

Rowing the boat
Messages
70
Location
S/W Pa.
Hillary Johnson records in Osler's Web that in the '80s and '90s a lot of people who were eventually found to have ME had been dx with MS - some had lesions in MRI scans.
I spent the first few years with MS as the possible dx, especially with the nerve damage, foot drag and loss of balance.
But the MRI was "inconclusive" "clear" "some wear and tear" "some spinal damage in two places" depending on which neuro was talking at me.
I've still got the partial paralysis so I can't walk - but this would tick the one-of-the-polio-viruses box that Ramsay considered.

It's also happened that people with a dx of ME or CFS turn out to have MS. The overlap is very marked.

I agree with Alex. I am way more disabled than friends with MS. I also wonder who will live longer; my heart and lungs have had it and we know from studies that heart failure is the number one cause of death in ME. It's difficult to get proper mortality figures when death certs say heart failure and don't mention ME or CFS. I can't help wondering if proper research was done whether ME and MS would have similar outcomes there too.
Shell, have tried the herbal route, such as Hawthorne, L-Carnitine, Omega 3's etc, for your heart?