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Invest in ME/Prof Jonathan Edwards statement on UK Rituximab trial, 30 July

lansbergen

Senior Member
Messages
2,512
I think whatever causes our ME, catching a virus like flu is like "the last straw". I had mild symptoms of ME for years before complete collapse into ME. It was a nasty flu that finally took me down completely. In my case.

I had no health problems before what seemed the worse flu ever, knocked me down. I never completly recovered from it but in the beginning it was not to bad. Pushing made it worse and worse till the point I was dying. Then I had no choice but to take the risk using levamisole. That was the turning point. Back then it was freely available.
 

rosie26

Senior Member
Messages
2,446
Location
NZ
Interesting lansbergen, I guess it's also possible "if"' the cause is viral I could have caught it earlier on in the piece. But I think Prof. Edwards isn't inclined to think the cause is viral, if I remember rightly. So guess we are still waiting. Hope we get to the bottom of all this !

Big thanks to you, Prof. Edwards for joining us here, so appreciated.
 

garcia

Aristocrat Extraordinaire
Messages
976
Location
UK
As far as i'm aware hydrocortisone is a corticosteroid and therefore acts by reducing inflammation - in a few previous posts it has been discussed as to whether there is any inflammation involved in ME with the conclusions that there's little evidence of, at least standard, inflammation. I believe there's some debate about whether neuro-inflammation follows the same pathways/course and then there's also the possibility that any autoantibody acts by directly blocking or at least changing the normal function of receptor sites in neurones or other organs, meaning no inflammation need be involved!

If you read my post I was responding to Prof. Edwards hypothesis that: the immune system is behaving as though there is a serious infection, but there is no serious infection involved. As an hypothesis it is certainly plausible, but needs to be tested first. Part of being tested is to make sure it fits the observations we have about ME (in science observation is king).
If indeed there were no serious infection involved in ME, but the body is behaving as though there is a serious infection, then one would expect corticosteroids such as hydrocortisone to have a positive effect, since one of their primary purposes is to suppress the immune system:

Cortisol, known more formally as hydrocortisone (INN, USAN, BAN), is a steroid hormone, more specifically a glucocorticoid, produced by the zona fasciculata of the adrenal cortex.[1] It is released in response to stress and a low level of blood glucocorticoids. Its primary functions are to increase blood sugar through gluconeogenesis; suppress the immune system; and aid in fat, protein and carbohydrate metabolism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrocortisone

However most patients have a negative effect from hydrocortisone and other corticosteroids, many (like me) a profoundly negative effect. I was wondering what Prof. Edwards thought of this (hence the @ Jonathan Edwards in my post).

I too am very glad Prof. Edwards has chosen to learn about ME, and is forming hypotheses (which is the job of every good scientist). Part of our job as patients is to help people like Prof. Edwards test their hypotheses with our facts/observations (indeed I believe Prof. Edwards alluded to this in one of his posts).
 

Sasha

Fine, thank you
Messages
17,863
Location
UK
However most patients have a negative effect from hydrocortisone and other corticosteroids, many (like me) a profoundly negative effect.

garcia - is there any study evidence of that? (I'm not contradicting you, I'm just curious to know if there's a paper on it!).
 

user9876

Senior Member
Messages
4,556
However most patients have a negative effect from hydrocortisone and other corticosteroids, many (like me) a profoundly negative effect. I was wondering what Prof. Edwards thought of this (hence the @ Jonathan Edwards in my post).
.

Corticosteroids can have huge side effects so they could suppress the immune system whilst also causing all kinds of other problems. A friend who was given prednisolone for GVHD lost a lot of muscle strength as a side effect. They can also cause sleeping problems.
 

user9876

Senior Member
Messages
4,556
Yes, Andrew, those points struck me hard too. ME seems gradually to improve in most cases. Rituximab tends to need to be repeated in most autoimmune disease in order to maintain benefit, unlike the longer term remissions seen in Norway.

It made me wonder if ME could really be autoimmunity after all. But there are other examples. Immune thrombocytopenia (ITP) often improves in the long term. Even lupus, if it is controlled during the first few years can often stop flaring. Rheumatoid arthritis does settle for some. And 30% of ITP cases get prolonged remission with rituximab. So maybe ME would not be out of line. What I think is encouraging is that the autoimmune diseases that spontaneously settle may tend to be the ones that get long remissions with rituximab - it seems to make sense. If so then B cell related ME might well be one of those. We have to be a bit careful about the Norway remissions because even rheumatoid arthritis can remit for five years with rituximab and then relapse, but that is pretty unusual.

Where there is a remission after five years is this actually a relapse of is it a new occurance of the disease with the same random process that initially made the bad antibodies happening again as opposed to some form of latent memory?
 

Jonathan Edwards

"Gibberish"
Messages
5,256
In relation to my cryptic comments a page or two back, I will say one or two more things about why I think chasing individual viruses may be unfruitful (as others have commented too). There are lots of ifs and buts and different angles to put on this but here goes. My impression is that many of the symptoms of ME are in a sense apparent sensitivities to, or intolerances of, stimuli: including exertion, foodstuffs, light, noise, chemicals etc. Some of these stimuli, like light, impinge so directly on the nervous system that it seems it must be the nervous system itself that is hypersensitive. That suggests that some circulating factor, or maybe a factor like TNF within the brain is making trivial things seem intolerable. An example would be when one feels intense nausea looking at rich delicious food when one has an acute viral illness. It is not that one has become sensitive to that food especially but that one’s brain has become sensitive to almost everything. My suspicion is that the sense of constantly being afflicted by viruses may be part of the same thing. I agree that it is not going to be as simple as that but I think it is worth considering.

The next point is that if infections with particular viruses were to be blamed one would expect to have occasional reports where the presence of that virus became very obvious – if for instance the person with ME was given certain types of immunosuppressive therapy. I appreciate that epidemics of ME do seem to occur but if it was all due to one virus the epidemic pattern ought to be much more general. Again, you can argue against this, but I am trying to redress a balance. There seems to be an assumption that we need a specific environmental trigger, but, as I have been saying, epidemiological theory does not in fact require this if we factor in the dynamics of the immune response.

What we might be left with is that the dominant sense that ME is like constantly suffering from viral symptoms might point us in the direction of thinking that it is a dysregulation of mediators specifically associated with virus infection. As an example, there is a hint that the molecule TRIM21 might be involved in the handling of viruses within cells by the immune system and there is a link between TRIM21 and Sjogren’s syndrome.

This links back to the debate about mediators like TNF and cortisol. Cortisol suppresses certain effector systems in the immune response, including TNF, at least in the bloodstream, but not others. Cortisol, as far as I am aware, has no effect on circulating antibody levels, presumably because it does not affect plasma cells much. So although cortisol makes RA better by suppressing inflammatory mediators, it may be of little use where antibodies are causing trouble without causing inflammation. A clear example would be the exophthalmos (eye protrusion) associated with anti-thyroid peroxidase antibodies. The absence of any benefit from cortisol in ME would tend to suggest that the symptoms are not due to standard inflammatory pathways. This might be because inflammation is within the central nervous system but even then one would expect cortisol to have some benefit.
 

Jonathan Edwards

"Gibberish"
Messages
5,256
Prof. Edwards,

Can you give some examples of possible biomarkers? Shouldn't they be simple and usable in a clinical setting and hopefully inexpensive? I am especially interested in examples that are not blood tests.

I think to begin with it would help to have a biomarker of any sort and it might be one that is not readily usable in routine clinical practice and it might be a blood sample! Once that has been pinned down by good statistical significance in a scientific study the attitude to ME will change. Finding a practical biomarker for clinical use may then take longer but at least there will be motivation to develop the technology if it is known that there is a particular pathway to focus on. I am not sure why blood tests are not your favourite. In practice they tend to be the most practical way of getting information. On the other hand some sort of exercise stress test might give an answer - but maybe I would prefer the blood test if I had ME!
 

Jonathan Edwards

"Gibberish"
Messages
5,256
I thought memory B cells have CD20. According to this scheme I am right.

Is this scheme correct?

http://arthritis-research.com/content/15/S1/S3/figure/F1


ar3908-1.jpg

Yes memory B cells have CD20. Not sure why this comes up. Even memory B cells are in a sense cells undergoing education, to the extent that they do not make much antibody until they go through another round of checking their skills against antigen. As to whether long term antibody responses are determined by memory B cells or plasma cells, this is still something nobody is quite clear about. It may be a bit of both. One other point is that rituximab may not kill certain populations of memory cells if they live in protected zones in lymph node and spleen. So although all B cells have CD20 (not plasma cells) we do not assume they are all killed.
 

Jonathan Edwards

"Gibberish"
Messages
5,256
I wonder if the relationship of ME to infection could be somewhat indirect. ...

I agree that the events around the onset phase of acute onset ME may be hard to tease out. A condition that looks a bit like ME is Reiter's syndrome, which can have similar severe fatigue and is associated with an initial intracellular bacterial infection. Viral infections are intracellular too but they do not ever seem to trigger Reiter's syndrome, which is interesting. Maybe the mediators are different so you get ME instead. In Reiter's syndrome it is not clear that there are any autoantibodies. It seems more likely that there is an overactivity of T cells that can last for a year or two or sometimes for many years. I find it hard to understand what keeps that going and sometimes wonder if a B cell loop is helping the T cells keep going. I don't think anyone has a good model for this.

I am not sure that we recognise 'active' or 'quiescent' immune systems so much. The number of mutations in antibody genes may be about the same every day. What may be different is whether or not the results are being grown up by plasma cells for immediate use. But I think there may be times when more secondary mutations occur during infections and these could form loops. It's a good question. A lot of these questions are very much on the edge of what anyone really has a handle on I think.
 

Sasha

Fine, thank you
Messages
17,863
Location
UK
I think to begin with it would help to have a biomarker of any sort and it might be one that is not readily usable in routine clinical practice and it might be a blood sample! Once that has been pinned down by good statistical significance in a scientific study the attitude to ME will change. Finding a practical biomarker for clinical use may then take longer but at least there will be motivation to develop the technology if it is known that there is a particular pathway to focus on. I am not sure why blood tests are not your favourite. In practice they tend to be the most practical way of getting information. On the other hand some sort of exercise stress test might give an answer - but maybe I would prefer the blood test if I had ME!


I've got serious concerns about the 'testing to destruction' that could be involved in the exercise stress test. I understand the current need for it for research purposes and admire those patients willing to undergo it for the sake of the rest of us but I'd hate to see it established as a diagnostic test. I don't know of any other disease where patients risk serious harm from a diagnostic test.
 

garcia

Aristocrat Extraordinaire
Messages
976
Location
UK
The absence of any benefit from cortisol in ME would tend to suggest that the symptoms are not due to standard inflammatory pathways. This might be because inflammation is within the central nervous system but even then one would expect cortisol to have some benefit.

Many thanks for the reply Prof. Edwards.
I'm not talking about absence of benefit so much as outright worsening. Some of us do in fact get some symptomatic relief from hydrocortisone in the short term, especially with regards to inflammation. The issue is that corticosteroids can cause us immense long term relapse. I'm not talking about huge doses either, I'm talking about anything from a physiological replacement dose (say 20mg hydrocortisone), down to 1mg or lower. Immune suppression seems to be one of the worst things to do in ME. Obviously this doesn't prove infectious aetiology, but at least strongly suggests it, to my mind at least.

The next point is that if infections with particular viruses were to be blamed one would expect to have occasional reports where the presence of that virus became very obvious – if for instance the person with ME was given certain types of immunosuppressive therapy.

This is what I'm saying happens. By giving immunosuppresive therapy such as corticosteroids, ME patients are generally made much worse.

If there is an infectious cause for ME (or at least a subset of patients) then it is not likely to be an existing known virus.

P.S. in case it isn't clear, I am still open to the possibility of a non-infectious aetiology for ME, though I personally think it less likely than an infectious aetiology. But immune suppression does seem to be an overt part of this disease. Acquiring infections not only seems to trigger the disease in most, but also seems to cause permanent worsening in those who already have the illness.
 

Gemini

Senior Member
Messages
1,176
Location
East Coast USA
Lots of doctors still just talk of genetic and environmental factors in disease and forget that the epidemiology textbooks mention another class of factor - stochastic or random. Antibody generation is entirely random. But for ME it does look as if, at least in one form, infection is a trigger. That need not mean that it matters much which infection it is. The idea that there is a cross reactivity between a microbe and a self protein has never had much evidence to support it. But it might mean that viruses need to be thought about.

Professor you bring to mind my favorite 2012 paper involving infectious triggers in general perhaps you are familiar with it as it caused quite a stir in the press? Researchers monitoring the immune system's interaction with the environment in a 54-yr old man over a 14 month period unexpectedly on Day 289 caught a respiratory syncytial viral infection (RSV) apparently trigger Type 2 diabetes to which he was genetically predisposed. They had been tracking 40,000 variables (with the help of a computer!) including his [Michael Snyder's] autoantibodies : "Snyder also exhibited increased levels of autoantibodies, or antibodies that reacted with his own proteins, after viral infection. Although autoantibody production can be a normal, temporary reaction to illness, the researchers were interested to note that one in particular targeted an insulin receptor binding protein." The researchers concluded: "We speculate that perhaps RSV triggered aberrant glucose metabolism through activation of a viral inflammation response in conjunction with a predisposition toward T2D."

A confounding mystery in this story to me is that Snyder experienced a second viral illness during the experiment a human rhinovirus (HRV) on Day 0 which did not trigger his autoimmune disease. Would you suppose the generation of his insulin receptor binding protein autoantibody was random, or is it possible that some unique characteristic of RSV but not HRV played a role? Bringing it back to ME, I wonder if some "unique" characteristic of the enteroviruses and other viruses/vaccines mentioned over the years as triggers might provoke an overly strong immune response leading the interferon pathway to protectively switch to immune supression mode setting off a cascade of immune and neurological symptoms?

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/03/120315123020.htm

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22424236 Open Access
 

voner

Senior Member
Messages
592
I think to begin with it would help to have a biomarker of any sort and it might be one that is not readily usable in routine clinical practice and it might be a blood sample! Once that has been pinned down by good statistical significance in a scientific study the attitude to ME will change. Finding a practical biomarker for clinical use may then take longer but at least there will be motivation to develop the technology if it is known that there is a particular pathway to focus on. I am not sure why blood tests are not your favourite. In practice they tend to be the most practical way of getting information. On the other hand some sort of exercise stress test might give an answer - but maybe I would prefer the blood test if I had ME!

prof. Edwards,

Well for us that have been reading medical research papers for years, there have been all sorts of "blood test biomarkers", But the caveat seems to often come along with the question of patient selection subsets, etc. Kind of a chicken and egg. How do you get around that?

For me, the exercise gene expression studies done by Alan Light, et. al. Certainly shown the most dramatic evidence of illness/Dysfunction. Their test Involved Moderate exercise, Which still could be problematic for some or many.

Here is one of the papers by Light, etc.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21615807

Prof Edwards .... Can you give a couple examples of blood tests that are done in autoimmune diseases? Would you be looking for antibodies?
 

Sasha

Fine, thank you
Messages
17,863
Location
UK
Well for us that have been reading medical research papers for years, there have been all sorts of "blood test biomarkers", But the caveat seems to often come along with the question of patient selection subsets, etc. Kind of a chicken and egg. How do you get around that?

For me, the exercise gene expression studies done by Alan Light, et. al. Certainly shown the most dramatic evidence of illness/Dysfunction. Their test Involved Moderate exercise, Which still could be problematic for some or many.

I wonder if one could identify people by the Lights' test and then attempt to use that group to find biomarkers in the blood or other tissue or fluids.
 

voner

Senior Member
Messages
592
I wonder if one could identify people by the Lights' test and then attempt to use that group to find biomarkers in the blood or other tissue or fluids.


I think that is the Eventual intent of Their studies. It's a few years off, it sounds like. I think their Intent is that they will do some more of these gene expression studies In order to weed out a couple subtypes or more. That will allow them to start looking for specific biomarkers.

One of nice things about the Light studies is that They are not saying The dysfunction is a cause of infection or autoimmunity, etc. They are saying we have these patients that we have carefully verified have the ME/CFS/FMS symptomatic issues and look at the wildly dysfunctional gene expressions they have after exercise.

It would be interesting to hear what their next step would be as far as looking for biomarkers. I have the opportunity speak to Dr. Bateman at the end of June in Denver, but unfortunately, I didn't even think to ask her that.

I highly recommend Dr. Batemans video up at the CFIDS site.... even for You, Prof. Edwards, or maybe even especially for you. It will give you a good flavor of the variations in the patients that they're looking at, Dr. Bateman actually shows the gene expression studies of some of the individual patients and describes their symptoms etc.

 

Marco

Grrrrrrr!
Messages
2,386
Location
Near Cognac, France
In relation to my cryptic comments a page or two back, I will say one or two more things about why I think chasing individual viruses may be unfruitful (as others have commented too). There are lots of ifs and buts and different angles to put on this but here goes. My impression is that many of the symptoms of ME are in a sense apparent sensitivities to, or intolerances of, stimuli: including exertion, foodstuffs, light, noise, chemicals etc. Some of these stimuli, like light, impinge so directly on the nervous system that it seems it must be the nervous system itself that is hypersensitive. That suggests that some circulating factor, or maybe a factor like TNF within the brain is making trivial things seem intolerable. An example would be when one feels intense nausea looking at rich delicious food when one has an acute viral illness. It is not that one has become sensitive to that food especially but that one’s brain has become sensitive to almost everything. My suspicion is that the sense of constantly being afflicted by viruses may be part of the same thing. I agree that it is not going to be as simple as that but I think it is worth considering.

On the basis of my own symptoms (including pre onset of ME) and discussions here with others, I proposed that ME/CFS patients if tested might have an information processing/sensory defensiveness problem and that one artifact of this might be measured as a 'sensory gating deficit'.

This does appear to be the case (at least as far as a later 'gating-in' measure is concerned - basically the allocation of attention to salient stimuli).

Event-related potentials in Japanese childhood chronic fatigue syndrome.
Akemi Tomoda, Kei Miyuno, Nobuki Murayama, Takaka Joudoi, Tomohiko Igasaki. Journal of Pediatric Neurology, January 2007.

http://iospress.metapress.com/content/w14pg23t125337q8/


Earlier gating out of repetitive or trivial noxious stimuli hasn't to my knowledge been properly tested in this population.


As regards a potential model for this central hypersensitivity - Martin Pall's model of multiple chemical sensitivity (and 'related' conditions such as ME/CFS, PTSD and fibromylagia) may be worth revisiting.

The basic schema is : organic solvents trigger glutamate release leading to ‘long-term potentiation’ of glutamate receptors sparking a ’vicious cycle’ involving glutamate and nitric oxide/pyroxinitrate.

Elevated nitric oxide/peroxynitrite theory of multiple chemical sensitivity: central role of N-methyl-D-aspartate receptors in the sensitivity mechanism.
Martin L Pall

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1241647/
 

Snow Leopard

Hibernating
Messages
5,902
Location
South Australia
Jonathan Edwards
If as you say the immune system is behaving as though there is a serious infection, but there is no serious infection, then surely things like hydrocortisone would make us feel better (by shutting down an aberrant immune response)?

I'm not saying it is a good idea to for patients to take it, but Corticosteroids have been shown to have moderate effects in double blinded RCTs. One of the keys from the studies is that dosage was important for both getting an effect and avoiding harms.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9989716
http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/86/8/3545.short

There were a few more, but I don't have time right now to find them.

I wonder if the relationship of ME to infection could be somewhat indirect. The Dubbo study found that the sole predictor of developing CFS following an infection was not the particular infectious agent, but rather the severity of the infection.

That is not quite what was said. The severity of the illness, rather than the severity of the infection was the key predictor. Eg those who were bedbound, suddenly couldn't walk etc. were the ones who were likely to have a CFS like condition at the follow ups, whereas those with more mild fatigue were more likely to claim to be recovered at the follow up.
 

lansbergen

Senior Member
Messages
2,512
I'm not saying it is a good idea to for patients to take it, but Corticosteroids have been shown to have moderate effects in double blinded RCTs. One of the keys from the studies is that dosage was important for both getting an effect and avoiding harms.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9989716
http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/86/8/3545.short.

Both only for fatique and both say for some patients.

Filter out these patients and the bin will become less messy.