BTW, the worst allergies I ever experience in my life were when I visited the Hague, in the Netherlands. I was utterly crippled in my hotel room. It was so sickening. But the Dutch love the trees. I mean, what are they going to carve all of those shoes and canal boats out of..
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Fecal Transplants
- Thread starter Misfit Toy
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Waverunner
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I get your point. The fact however is, that your body harbours 10 times more bacteria, than human cells. You received all these different strains through your environment. Many other people have these bacteria as well. Your microbiome is essential for your health and has implications for lots of diseases. FTs have a yuck-factor of 10 but unless there are better alternatives (and there are none because there are 500 to 1000 different strains in your gut) it's take it or leave it. There will be alternatives (bacteria from laboratories) in the future, that's for sure.
PNR,
I'm not trying to desensitize you to the awfulness of human waste, or anything. But you know in Urdu and Hindi, there is no euphemism for the word referring to human excretory function. This is a western concept. In India, Pakistan, they just use the verb "to s**t" (pakna). So when President Bhutto was having official talks with Bush, if she had the urge, she would say "excuse me, George, but I have to go s**t." Different countries, different cultures.
I know, I know, you are probably thinking: but I don't live in India or speak Hindi, so I'll keep my euphemisms, thank you very much. My point is that a huge part of humanity doesn't view this as anything other than part of normal human life. And the Beatles taught us that everything Indian is ultimately wise and very cool.
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MishMash.I would love to get a transplant with sedation so I don't remember it, or general anesthetic. Then it would be like any other surgery. Show up, breathe in their mask, and wake up when it's done.
If I think about it, it grosses me out, but so do some surgeries... warning, kind of gross:... There are some surgeries where they literally burn to cauterize tissues for example. I am certain there are grosser too.
As long as I didn't have to smell or see it, I would like to try it. Okay, I am grossed out still, but that would be acceptable for the possible gains. The problem for me is the cost to get it done in a hospital or doctor's office, and the travel to one.
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I live in Sydney and considered this treatment at one stage. There is a Dr Borody here who is a leading exponent of the whole process. Anyone wanting to read research articles can go to his centres website 'Centre for Digestive Diseases' and download. What they don't tell you is that science has recently discovered there are 'poo types' just as there are blood types. Studies in Netherlands show that bacteria ( at least 50 per cent of poo) studies show definite patterns in individuals, just as there are with blood types. We are nowhere near being able to test for this however so the question is how do you know if your donor is the correct poo type? The odds seem to be one in 5. Most gut bacteria -80 per cent, cannot be studied because they don't grow in Petrie dish. We really don't know a great deal about them. Borody is adamant that Clostridium difficile is rampant and he may be right but he could not detect it in my poo, nevertheless suggested transplant. It' called Difficile because it is so hard to detect! What are good and bad bacteria? Well that question is not simple, it depends where they are in Gi tract. The lactobacillus are only only one of more than 500 types of bacteria we need to digest food. I have copper malabsorption despite long term oral supplementation, so now I inject it once every 2 weeks and that seems to be only way I can get it. Go figure. My main problem when I was severely fatigued was gut motility, governed by serotonin. Have been on tri-cyclic antidepressant for 23 years now which fixes that about 80%. Same dose, same drug, same effect. Saved my ass, literally. Unspeakable problems before that. That means my problem is really in brain where serotonin is controlled. Also take modafinil, another brain stimulant, of unknown mechanism, but also works great. The only stimulant known to science that doesn't make you high.
Misfit Toy
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As far as the whole pollen factor, my allergies are killing me and I can barely sleep. Not a good time.
Waverunner
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I'm not trying to talk you out of it. This is a personal decision, I just wanted to add a more objective view. There are thousands of people with IBD, who literally would do anything to get cured or improve and not loose their intestine. So personal disease and symptoms play a role as well, when deciding about microbiome transplants.
fyi: NPR article (http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/201...-backs-off-on-regulation-of-fecal-transplants) on how the fda is backing off from proposed regulation of fecal microbiome transplants (FMT).
they were going to call poop a "drug," making it harder for patients and doctors to do FMT. they have backed off from that, thereby saving the lives of patients who need FMTs to live (i.e. C Diff patients).
yes, i am still doing the home administered transplants about 1-2x/month (i started doing them early january 2013) and they help A LOT to regulate my bowel movements: if i do them intermittently, they ameliorate my chronic constipation that i got from antibiotics and from the wretched disease ME/CFS. i firmly believe that anyone with gut issues of any sort should strongly consider doing FMTs. they are extraordinarily effective and helpful. of course you need to screen the FMT donor first. if you want the info on how, just let me know and i'll email the protocols.
in the future there will be synthetic poop available, so no human donor will be needed. here is an article on that.
http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/201...s-synthetic-poop-to-treat-stubborn-infections
they were going to call poop a "drug," making it harder for patients and doctors to do FMT. they have backed off from that, thereby saving the lives of patients who need FMTs to live (i.e. C Diff patients).
yes, i am still doing the home administered transplants about 1-2x/month (i started doing them early january 2013) and they help A LOT to regulate my bowel movements: if i do them intermittently, they ameliorate my chronic constipation that i got from antibiotics and from the wretched disease ME/CFS. i firmly believe that anyone with gut issues of any sort should strongly consider doing FMTs. they are extraordinarily effective and helpful. of course you need to screen the FMT donor first. if you want the info on how, just let me know and i'll email the protocols.
in the future there will be synthetic poop available, so no human donor will be needed. here is an article on that.
http://www.npr.org/blogs/health/201...s-synthetic-poop-to-treat-stubborn-infections
*GG*
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Antibiotics can cause constipation? I have been on Azitrhomycin for 2 weeks now, thought my stomach would be more "upset", but it seems to have been bothered more by Cymbalta, which I have been for about 2 months now.
GG
GG
ggingues:
I know I haven't posted much here in..years. But take my word for it...be VERY cautious about using ABX for any long-term period. It has really completely messed up my gut (verifiable through tests). Granted, my gut was awful to start with, but it is 10x worth after my time on Azithro. Consider other things before you dive head first into it.
Have you looked into eating probiotic and prebiotic foods, such as Kefir, yogourt, beet borscht, sauerkraut, apples, etc?
That, plus man-made probiotics should be a necessity if you're taking ABX.
I know I haven't posted much here in..years. But take my word for it...be VERY cautious about using ABX for any long-term period. It has really completely messed up my gut (verifiable through tests). Granted, my gut was awful to start with, but it is 10x worth after my time on Azithro. Consider other things before you dive head first into it.
Have you looked into eating probiotic and prebiotic foods, such as Kefir, yogourt, beet borscht, sauerkraut, apples, etc?
That, plus man-made probiotics should be a necessity if you're taking ABX.
*GG*
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MonkeyMan
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Hi everyone,
If anyone is looking for a clinic that will perform fecal transplants, there is one in Tampa, Florida. See http://www.rdsinfusions.com/about-2
Here is more information they sent me:
MT, also known as human probiotic infusion, bacteriotherapy, and fecal transplant, is a powerful infusion of healthy colonic flora which has been used to treat antibiotic-resistant C difficile infections, ulcerative colitis, and chronic constipation (IBS-C). It may also be indicated for certain patients with Crohn’s disease, IBS-D, and possibly even some autoimmune disease (such as multiple sclerosis and ITP.) We would need to set you up for a phone consultation with Dr. Shepard to make sure that you are a good candidate. The cost of that consultation is $300.00 and that fee would be deducted from the total cost of the transplant if you proceed with the FMT. We do have patients that are from out of state or out of town. Normally they are scheduled for three treatments three days in a row, however not all patients are the same. That would be something that Dr. Shepard would discuss with you in the consultation.
On the flip-side, here is an email that another physician who performs FMT sent me:
My experience with fecal transplant has been (almost) entirely limited to C difficile infection. C diff is pretty simple in that it results from derangement/inadequacy in the normal bacterial flora in the colon (usually caused by antibiotics). There are hundreds of case reports in the medical literature (and a recent clinical trial) suggesting that it really does work by replacing the missing (good) bacteria which then suppress the C diff.
As for indications further afield, such as IBD, IBS, “leaky gut,” MS, chronic fatigue, autoimmune disease etc. There is (almost) no literature to support using FMT to treat these conditions. Though many of these diseases may be associated with derangement in the gut microbiome, we certainly do not know enough about what specifically we would need to alter in these patients or how to best accomplish that. Certainly, attempts to manipulate the gut microbiome via FMT can have unintended adverse consequences. Besides the obvious risks (transmission of infection), I am concerned that the replacement of this highly complex whole community of microorganisms may have incompletely understood effects which would put patients at risk for other conditions (autoimmune disease, neurologic disease, colon cancer). I have no doubts that as we learn more about the gut microbiome we will discover manipulations (via FMT or probiotics) which may have therapeutic benefits for some of these patients. However, I definitely do not feel comfortable offering FMT as a treatment for conditions outside of C difficile at this time.
Furthermore, I am restricted by both my own institution and the federal government (FDA requires an investigational new drug application or "IND") from doing so. Given the tremendous energy and time I am focused on conducting the clinical trial in C. diff, embarking on another IND application is truly impossible for me at this time. Perhaps when the FMT for C diff study data is available the FDA will be more open to applications to study FMT as a treatment for other disorders and will have streamlined the process.
Personally, I would be quite willing to do FMT despite the "yuck" factor, but I would not take the chance of the risks this doctor mentions.
Drew
If anyone is looking for a clinic that will perform fecal transplants, there is one in Tampa, Florida. See http://www.rdsinfusions.com/about-2
Here is more information they sent me:
MT, also known as human probiotic infusion, bacteriotherapy, and fecal transplant, is a powerful infusion of healthy colonic flora which has been used to treat antibiotic-resistant C difficile infections, ulcerative colitis, and chronic constipation (IBS-C). It may also be indicated for certain patients with Crohn’s disease, IBS-D, and possibly even some autoimmune disease (such as multiple sclerosis and ITP.) We would need to set you up for a phone consultation with Dr. Shepard to make sure that you are a good candidate. The cost of that consultation is $300.00 and that fee would be deducted from the total cost of the transplant if you proceed with the FMT. We do have patients that are from out of state or out of town. Normally they are scheduled for three treatments three days in a row, however not all patients are the same. That would be something that Dr. Shepard would discuss with you in the consultation.
On the flip-side, here is an email that another physician who performs FMT sent me:
My experience with fecal transplant has been (almost) entirely limited to C difficile infection. C diff is pretty simple in that it results from derangement/inadequacy in the normal bacterial flora in the colon (usually caused by antibiotics). There are hundreds of case reports in the medical literature (and a recent clinical trial) suggesting that it really does work by replacing the missing (good) bacteria which then suppress the C diff.
As for indications further afield, such as IBD, IBS, “leaky gut,” MS, chronic fatigue, autoimmune disease etc. There is (almost) no literature to support using FMT to treat these conditions. Though many of these diseases may be associated with derangement in the gut microbiome, we certainly do not know enough about what specifically we would need to alter in these patients or how to best accomplish that. Certainly, attempts to manipulate the gut microbiome via FMT can have unintended adverse consequences. Besides the obvious risks (transmission of infection), I am concerned that the replacement of this highly complex whole community of microorganisms may have incompletely understood effects which would put patients at risk for other conditions (autoimmune disease, neurologic disease, colon cancer). I have no doubts that as we learn more about the gut microbiome we will discover manipulations (via FMT or probiotics) which may have therapeutic benefits for some of these patients. However, I definitely do not feel comfortable offering FMT as a treatment for conditions outside of C difficile at this time.
Furthermore, I am restricted by both my own institution and the federal government (FDA requires an investigational new drug application or "IND") from doing so. Given the tremendous energy and time I am focused on conducting the clinical trial in C. diff, embarking on another IND application is truly impossible for me at this time. Perhaps when the FMT for C diff study data is available the FDA will be more open to applications to study FMT as a treatment for other disorders and will have streamlined the process.
Personally, I would be quite willing to do FMT despite the "yuck" factor, but I would not take the chance of the risks this doctor mentions.
Drew
Sparrowhawk
Senior Member
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grasshopper wrote: "What they don't tell you is that science has recently discovered there are 'poo types' just as there are blood types."
That's the part that gives me pause. Even if you drew the donor from your own family, if they don't have the same "gut biome type" you do ... could be dicey. If similar to bone marrow donor matching, perhaps a 3/4 match might be enough for the fecal transplant to work.
This is still an option I'm considering. The more I read about gut biome the more interesting it gets. For instance, I hypothesize that if the two years I was on doxy destroyed my gut, and your gut biome is your first like of immune defense, then everything after that was falling on the shoulders of the remaining immune forces. Once they got exhausted, it was last one out turn off the lights --> CFS. So if you restore the gut, it may not solve all your CFS problems, but it could be a vital step in the right direction.
I put this in the same category as antiviral therapies. They work perhaps only for those people for whom a break from constant attack of their immune system allows it to bounce back. For those who may also be dealing with say, gut, and heavy metal, or life stress issues, it might not be enough, thus the % of nonresponders.
My first step in this direction was to get the American Gut Project test kit and send off my sample. It takes six months but should give me the complete gut biome map. I'd like to get the rest of the family tested as well.
That's the part that gives me pause. Even if you drew the donor from your own family, if they don't have the same "gut biome type" you do ... could be dicey. If similar to bone marrow donor matching, perhaps a 3/4 match might be enough for the fecal transplant to work.
This is still an option I'm considering. The more I read about gut biome the more interesting it gets. For instance, I hypothesize that if the two years I was on doxy destroyed my gut, and your gut biome is your first like of immune defense, then everything after that was falling on the shoulders of the remaining immune forces. Once they got exhausted, it was last one out turn off the lights --> CFS. So if you restore the gut, it may not solve all your CFS problems, but it could be a vital step in the right direction.
I put this in the same category as antiviral therapies. They work perhaps only for those people for whom a break from constant attack of their immune system allows it to bounce back. For those who may also be dealing with say, gut, and heavy metal, or life stress issues, it might not be enough, thus the % of nonresponders.
My first step in this direction was to get the American Gut Project test kit and send off my sample. It takes six months but should give me the complete gut biome map. I'd like to get the rest of the family tested as well.
The reason why FMT works here in Australia is because they use up to 3 months of multiple antibiotics in order to kill the bad bacteria in the gut before they hit it with the donor poo .... IBS/IBD is a gut infection ......
The Melbourne University has shown that enterococcus and streptococcus set up the 'leaky gut' environment which causes the immune system to jump into hyperdrive ..... How many people with CFS/ME have ever had a strep antibody test??? Look for DNase B in particular but streptolysin O, and hylaundranise antibodies can also be present .....
Kill the cause of the inflammation, stop the disease .... www.superbugskill.com
The Melbourne University has shown that enterococcus and streptococcus set up the 'leaky gut' environment which causes the immune system to jump into hyperdrive ..... How many people with CFS/ME have ever had a strep antibody test??? Look for DNase B in particular but streptolysin O, and hylaundranise antibodies can also be present .....
Kill the cause of the inflammation, stop the disease .... www.superbugskill.com
JT1024
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I have not read this entire thread so please forgive me if this post is not appropriate. I have limited time and can only post as I am able.
I work in a clinical laboratory.. we test for many pathogens. I saw the "Fecal Transplant" topic and immediately thought of C. difficile since it is a huge issue both in the acute care setting and in nursing homes/rehabs.
A colleague informed me today that someone there was a new development. I was aware of fecal transplants but not aware of fecal capsules.Hopefully this will help many people: http://www.nbcnews.com/health/poop-pills-are-latest-way-cure-dangerous-c-diff-infections-8C11300066
I work in a clinical laboratory.. we test for many pathogens. I saw the "Fecal Transplant" topic and immediately thought of C. difficile since it is a huge issue both in the acute care setting and in nursing homes/rehabs.
A colleague informed me today that someone there was a new development. I was aware of fecal transplants but not aware of fecal capsules.Hopefully this will help many people: http://www.nbcnews.com/health/poop-pills-are-latest-way-cure-dangerous-c-diff-infections-8C11300066
Hey JT ... Us Aussies are way ahead of what everybody else is doing ... Notice the CFS paper .... Have a feast .....
http://www.cdd.com.au/pdf/publications/All Publications/all_publications.html
globalpilot
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Do you have a link for the Melbourne University/streptoccocci/leaky gut finding ? Google didn't produce a result.