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Help with glutamine info?

EMilo

Elizabethmilo.com
Messages
223
Location
Seattle, WA
Hi everyone,

I swear I spent ages reading posts about glutamine and I'm still confused. Can someone with the knowledge at the tip of their brains tell me what exactly glutamine can do for us, if there are any problems with taking it (contraindications with other supplements/drugs or side effects to watch for), and what a good brand is?

My doctor has instructed me to take 20 grams a day of glutamine powder.

Thank you!!
 

Plum

Senior Member
Messages
512
Location
UK
My experience is that it's good for helping heal the gut. BUT I have only ever managed 1/2 teaspoon twice a day. I think the recommended dose is usually 5g. It helps repair the gut lining from leaky gut.

I thought it was contraindicated with some ME people due to it's effect on the brain - I'm sure someone else can explain this bit as I don't remember it myself.
 

undcvr

Senior Member
Messages
822
Location
NYC
Your doc is a a pretty wise person. It's a great supplement if you react badly to it switch to AKG. Most pple with ME wud prefer AKG anyway cos AKG scavenges ammonia in the blood, binds to it and becomes glutamine. I think that glutamineis an essential step to go thru for healing for ME.
 

EMilo

Elizabethmilo.com
Messages
223
Location
Seattle, WA
Thanks for the help! I would love to know why it is contraindicated in some... And I have no idea what AKG is, but I will google it.

For now I will trust my doctor. 20 grams/day does seem a lot, though, based on what I've read on here.

Does anyone have a brand they recommend?
 

Plum

Senior Member
Messages
512
Location
UK
I use Higher Nature's.

I think 20g may give you an upset stomach - for me I get an odd ache and become windy on 5g so I don't know what 20g would do.
 

John H Wolfe

Senior Member
Messages
220
Location
London
This relates to the work of those such as Maes et al. (2008), suggestive of the following as aiding the alleviation of symptoms associated with ME/CFS (through the link to gut bacteria):

Supplements: e.g. Glutamine, NAC, Zinc

Diet: 'Leaky Gut' protocols (low carb etc)
 

undcvr

Senior Member
Messages
822
Location
NYC
AKG is alpha keto-glutarate, it is the glutamine molecule with the the ammonia (NH3) group removed
 

EMilo

Elizabethmilo.com
Messages
223
Location
Seattle, WA
This relates to the work of those such as Maes et al. (2008), suggestive of the following as aiding the alleviation of symptoms associated with ME/CFS (through the link to gut bacteria):

Supplements: e.g. Glutamine, NAC, Zinc

Diet: 'Leaky Gut' protocols (low carb etc)
Wow, thanks for all this!
 

EMilo

Elizabethmilo.com
Messages
223
Location
Seattle, WA
I use Higher Nature's.

I think 20g may give you an upset stomach - for me I get an odd ache and become windy on 5g so I don't know what 20g would do.
Thanks, Plum! I had already ordered Jarrow Formula's glutamine powder, but I'll be careful to work up slowly to the 20g. I do NOT need a windy issue (I already have trouble from my cpap).
 

undcvr

Senior Member
Messages
822
Location
NYC
Like most ME supplements, in fact i think all of them, Glutamine is only effective for a certain window of your disease and if taken when your ME is too far out can cause even more complications.

Glutamine is used to help treat leaky gut or gut permeability however if your gut has too many issues with it or if glutamine itself it not enough it Will let the glutamine pass through into the bloodstream directly without uptaking in the gut first. You Do Not want this to happen. This will raise the levels of glutamine in the blood and and can lead to glutamine induced toxicity bcos it passes through the blood brain barrier relatively quickly.This together with all the nonsense aka toxins that your gut is letting through directly into the bloodstream can lead to an exacerbation of symptoms. Your liver will be of no help bcos it is already being over burdened trying to filter out stuff in the blood that your gut shud not be letting through in the first place. You are in a 'toxic' state.However if Glutamine is only one of the few things that your body needs to correct the imbalance then Glutamine will be taken in by the gut and actually used by gut cells to heal itself. This is related to the paleo diet and why it works well for pple with ME.

So depending on your overall general state of health it will either help you or not, the only way to find out is to try. Good luck and enjoy.
 

Jarod

Senior Member
Messages
784
Location
planet earth
Interesting tib-bit on AKG for those considering it. Obviously doesn't apply to everybody...

Excitoxicity might explained why it may be "contraindicated with some ME people due to it's effect on the brain" Dr Russell Blaylock has done some interesting videos on excitoxicity.


Excitotoxicity – The CBS up regulation leads to excess production of alpha-ketoglutarate, which is converted in to glutamate, a stimulatory neurotransmitter. Under normal circumstances, glutamate will be converted in to GABA, a calming neurotransmitter, but the enzyme systems that convert glutamate in to GABA are compromised by lead and mercury, the clearance of which seems to be compromised in individuals with methyl cycle defects (here is a situation where dysfunction of a genetically abnormal enzyme leads to acquired dysfunction of a genetically normal enzyme system). The result is “excitotoxicity”, stimulatory behavior in autistic kids (“stims”) and anxiety and sleeplessness in adults. We approach this problem by limiting alpha-ketoglutarate and glutamate rich foods from your diet (more on Excitotoxicity to follow; diet tips in appendix) and by supplementing you with GABA, aiming to restore GABA:Glutamate balance. GABA is initiated at 500 mg once or twice a day, advancing the dose as you see fit by your response.

http://www.heartfixer.com/AMRI-Nutrigenomics.htm
 

undcvr

Senior Member
Messages
822
Location
NYC
Jarod there is also a molecule called alpha keto buyrate which is an intermediate molecule made along the way to making cysteine.
If the article was citing Yasko's CBS upregulation theory involving homocysteine then it is almost surely referring to alpha ketobutyrate and not AKG. The body actually makes alot of different alpha keto molecules on its way to making the final product. Also that article is a little strange as the reaction often goes in the other direction instead, after all, that is the definition of catabolism and allows AKG to go into the Krebs cycle. From the article you mentioned, it follows that taking lots of glutamate/glutamine makes u more calm in a healthy person due to the conversion to GABA ?? Does this really happen ?? And hth do u limit 'AKG-rich foods' ?? AKG is not found in nature, in the body the ratio is 1 to 1 with NH3 cancelling out its effects.

This has alrdy been discussed on the thread below where they tried to clear up the confusion. Basically the whole premise of your quote is wrong. Your body wud be so lucky to over produce AKG. It would enter the mitochondria and help each and every cell in the body burn energy, you would not be suffering from chronic fatigue in the first place.

http://forums.phoenixrising.me/index.php?threads/couple-of-questions.22718/

P.S. Amy Yasko herself made that same mistake and it has been pointed out to her. She has made the changes. But that is also the reason why so many pple now are questioning her theory bcos that is a very key foundation to it. And quite frankly to mistake AKG for AKB as a Dr is just sad. I don't like to comment on some of these pple's work but too many lives are at stake and pple really haven't been getting any better.
 

Jarod

Senior Member
Messages
784
Location
planet earth
AKG is alpha keto-glutarate, it is the glutamine molecule with the the ammonia (NH3) group removed

Hi undcvr and all,

The idea of scavenging the ammonia and creating glutamine instead sounds intriguing. Be interested to hear if anybody is having any luck.

It turns out that H Pylori can also increase ammonia. Something to keep in mind if one think s they have gastritis etc..


Found some good info to help understand a bit more about AKG/OKG, etc..

OKG is an ionic salt made up of one molecule ornithine and two molecules of alpha-ketoglutarate. OKG has been reported to speed up healing time among burn patients and those with severe wounds, such as post-operative patients. Other studies have examined its role in cancer, gut health, chronic malnourishment among the elderly, childrens’ growth in disease states and those with a compromised immune system. It has also been examined among healthy individuals who want to maintain or increase muscle mass.

Researchers are still scratching their heads trying to figure out how OKG works. They have observed that the two components of OKG are precursors to glutamate, which can be converted to glutamine. Glutamine plays a role in regulating protein metabolism. Ornithine is used by the body to make arginine, proline and the polyamines such as putrescine, spermine and spermidine. These play a role in successfully helping cells reproduce and helping to repair wounds. Ornithine is also a component of the urea cycle. Researchers also think that OKG decreases protein breakdown and the markers of protein degradation such as in burn injuries. They suspect that it might stimulate the release of insulin and growth hormone. And lastly; researchers report that the effects seen with OKG are seen when both ornithine and alpha-ketoglutarate are present together but not when they are used separately.

http://www.smart-publications.com/a...tarate-OKG-promotes-glutamine-and-muscle-mass


From another good blog:

Apparently it is also important to balance aminos according "Polly" or else one ends up throwing off more ammonia etc..

Mr. Generic: Hulda Clark says that glutamine removes ammonia, and you say that taking glutamine releases ammonia. I don’ t understand.

Polly: Glutamine is used to transport ammonia. In this sense, glutamine is used to remove ammonia. That is the only way in which I’ ve heard of glutamine removing ammonia. This isn’ t the same thing as saying taking a glutamine supplement will immediately remove ammonia. Just the opposite will happen. Some of the glutamine will be converted to glutamate or glutamic acid, and ammonia will be released.

Mr. Generic: The amino acid ornithine helps remove ammonia. Could I take that with the glutamine to counter the extra ammonia?

Polly: Unless you are particularly low on just ornithine, the best strategy would probably be to take a blend of aminos designed to remove ammonia. Usually, just one amino acid isn’ t appropriate. Every amino acid affects every other amino acid. Anytime you take just one amino, you will throw off a whole set of other amino acids. It is really a chain of events, like setting up a row of dominos. In fact, if you take the wrong balance of amino acids, your body may be forced to burn off some of the unwanted amino acids, and this would increase ammonia production.

http://healthyawareness.com/thread-how-to-remove-ammonia
 

undcvr

Senior Member
Messages
822
Location
NYC
woah sorry just saw this, Polly is wrong! "Usually, just one amino acid isn’ t appropriate. Every amino acid affects every other amino acid. Anytime you take just one amino, you will throw off a whole set of other amino acids."

It has been shown that the liver can wait for amino acids even if the required amino acid to build the protein is missing at that moment. The body can wait for up to 3 days sometimes for the rite amino acids to come along to piece together the needed protein. Obviously you can't wait that long if you really need those enzymes and proteins asap but this is not the point. It has been shown tho that the gut is more set up to absorb proteins in di and tri peptide form and not so much in its free form.
 

EMilo

Elizabethmilo.com
Messages
223
Location
Seattle, WA
My experience is that it's good for helping heal the gut. BUT I have only ever managed 1/2 teaspoon twice a day. I think the recommended dose is usually 5g. It helps repair the gut lining from leaky gut.

I thought it was contraindicated with some ME people due to it's effect on the brain - I'm sure someone else can explain this bit as I don't remember it myself.
Hi Plum, can you tell me, when you say you have only ever managed 1/2 tsp twice a day, is this because of side effects? Can you tell me what you have experienced that stopped you from increasing the dose? Thank you!
 

EMilo

Elizabethmilo.com
Messages
223
Location
Seattle, WA
I use Higher Nature's.

I think 20g may give you an upset stomach - for me I get an odd ache and become windy on 5g so I don't know what 20g would do.
Oh, sorry, just saw this. Side effects = upset stomach, windy, achy....? Well, those are part of my usual life, anyway! I'd have to be pretty nauseous to stop taking something Rxed by my doc, so I'll see how it goes. Thanks again!